Who on earth could actually need 400 watts?

Terje Larson · From: Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden

I read here about the amps steel players use and I'm amazed. I understand the need for clean headroom but who would actually need 400 watts? Or 300 for that matter, why would you need that?

Isn't that proof that stage volume levels are way to high? Shouldn't someone start to turn down or play softer instead? I know, watts aren't the same as volume, it is also sound quality. But 400 watts... ?

I also say that the rave reviews the Nashville 112 is getting is pointing in a new direction. Get an amp with enough power to sound good and mic it.

And while I'm at it... what's wrong with a little amplifier saturation if things get loud? Does it have to stay unltra clean at all times?

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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

[This message was edited by Terje Larson on 21 May 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I don't advocate loud stage volume at all, but if one wants a really clean sound on a large, dead stage in a good-sized room with a loud crowd, 200-400 RMS watts may be a good idea. I don't always need it, but sometimes I need a Session 400/500 or more for clarity. The idea is to keep the volume controls down low enough to stay well within the 'linear' region of the amp.

As for not minding a bit of saturation at loud volumes, that's fine if that's what you want. But if it's not, you need more clean juice. One size doesn't fit all, at least for me. As a rule of thumb, pedal steelers tend to want a more clean sound than, say, lap steel players.

I understand your basic premise that a lot of bands have too loud stage volume, for my tastes, anyway. The reasons for this vary from just liking to play at deafening volumes to needing a loud backline to cover up for an inadequate PA system. So sometimes that's just the way it is, and if you want a clean sound, the only choice is a loud clean amp. But I do like the trend toward smaller amps and lower volumes.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Perhaps ultimate speaker efficiency is the key to lower powered amps? The Blue Marvel may have something to do with the success of the 112?
DD

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Loud stage volumes have bugged me since day one. Bandleaders I have worked with just do not understand that lower volume levels "WORK". Back in the good old days, most of the "stage shows" used low level "sound reinforcement". In laymans terms,the human ear has an automatic volume control. As the sound levels increase beyond a certain level, the ear cannot detect subtle changes in volume. This tends to make it difficult to separate the different instruments. That is when it becomes noise instead of music, in my opinion. Another point to consider, is the fact that the louder you play, the louder the audience gets. It is a "catch 22" situation. I have given up on trying to get the bands to play at a "musical" level. I do my job, collect my pay, go home and listen to the ringing in my ears.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

One big issue to consider, back in the "old days" we used Tube amps, today many use solid state amps. A 30 or 40 watt tube amp is much louder than a 30 or 40 watt solid state amp.

When I got a Fender Bassman (in 1960)with two 6l6's I really had "more power than I'll ever need", for playing guitar.

Being in Florida with all the retiree's (including myself), playing to the retirees has to be at lower volume level. Some complain if it's much above a "whisper". I don't consider myself a "loud" player but solid state amps must be have some reserve.

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

Are"400-watt"amps really 400 watts?

Vern Wall · From: Arizona, USA

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

James, thanks for the advice. I never heard of diet and excercise as a treatment for tinnitus (Maybe it makes you forget about the ringing) hahaha. Actually, it sounds like a thousand locusts in concert. I used to put a cigarette filter in the ear on the side where the loud noise was. Like you said, the damage was already done.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I doubt anyone plays with 300/400 watts screaming out of there amp on stage...

But EVERYONE WANTS as much clean power as possible and that puts the stage volume and the efficiency of the amp in the ULTRA CLEAN arena well above amps that are only capable of 80 to 100 watts of total output .

These amps work for everyone, regardless of what the power requirements are, large room, small room, home practice etc..

A 60, 80 or 100 watt amp may fit the bill for many folks, but it does ot fit the bill for ALL players. A 300 watt amp ( such as a N1000 ) would probably fit the bill for MOST players as I doubt there is a such thing as fitting the bill for ALL players.

I read above about the Fender 40 and 60 watt amps. yes they are great, but even Fender new the TWIN was the king of the hill and had a market to die for, still does. And now evven Fender has the new Steel King available as well.

The hi power amps are about headroom and clean stage volume, not about playing at full bore...

remember, most hi powered stereo systems are several hundred watts, but we probably listen at 40 to 50 watts..why would that be..???

Dynamic range and THD .

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 May 2005 at 02:10 PM.]

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

It's all about headroom for me. In the studio, I mix mostly on Yamaha NS10's--8" woofer and a tweeter, rated at about 50 watts. I power them with a 300 watt per side amp. The difference on sound between a 2x50 watt amp and a 2x300 watt amp is simply astounding. Oh, and I mix at really quiet volumes--it's not about loudness...

My favorite steel rig is the Mesa Boogie preamp into the Mosvalve 500--lots of headroom.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

It's about never wanting to get even close to push a transistor power amp, because when transistor amps get close to their rated output, they start sounding like crap. Note that this is the exact inverse of tube power amps, where you want to push the power amp (that's when they sound the sweetest).

Which brings me to Tyack's 2nd law of Valveocity, "bring the smallest tube amp which will can cut a gig" and it's inverse: "If you must play a transistor power amp, bring the biggest you can carry".

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www.tyack.com

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

It's a loud world sometimes.

You can usually only make it quieter for yourself.

EJL

Terje Larson · From: Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden

I still don't really see why you on stage would need to have an amp that can do it all without being miced. A 100 watt amp, I get it. For headroom, I understand. But if you need more to still be heard while playing with a clear tone then someone else is way too loud.

If you happen to like the sound of your 400 watt amp that's another thing.

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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

Ricky Littleton · From: Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Cocoa Beach, Florida USA

My "simple" answer is HEADROOM! That extra dynamic range is handy for keeping out you out of "muddy waters" when your venue(s)vary.

Power is not always the answer. Proper miking and such lets you play down "low" while keeping the "MASTER VOLUME" setting reasonably high while keeping the "pre" set to a nice non-muddy setting. Then you can swell-up volume-wise to cut thru house noise.

Just my opinion.

Ricky...

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 112,Hilton Volume pedal, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box

Leslie Ehrlich · From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

I don't worry about playing clean. 50 watts is good enough for me.

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

Just like cabriolet drivers, some steel players just like the concept of unlimited headroom. The more, the better - it's as simple as that, I think.

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ´76 Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Peavey Nashville 1000

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

All I know is that all the sound engineers I am acquainted with hate mixing a steel. Many of my favorite bands have fired steel players for overwhelming stage volumes... many players know how to wield their power amps wisely, but many do not. I have chosen to stick with tubes purely to put a rein on myself, and because I can't stand the SS lack of tone. I keep saying I will switch but when it comes down to it I just can't afford the SS amps that don't suck...

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Why is this OPINION thing turning into an arguement ?

maybe every venue does not have each amp mic'd.. I know we don't.

Some venues require some UUMPPH on the stage and some don't, there is no black and white.

The issue I am reading here is some folks think that because you have a 300 or 400 watt amp you are playing too loud. That is so BOGUS..

If a player does not know how to use there gear then how is that a fault of the gear ?

If a player routinely plays medium to large venue gigs the appropriate gear is required, a 50 watt tube amp IS NOT going to cut it on gigs that require UUMPHH.....

Peavey has proven this conversation Bogus for well over 30 years now, can we all say Session 400, Session 500, Nashville 400, Nashville 1000 ? And everything in between as well.. And please do not come to the table wih the Nashville 112..In the words of Mike Brown and Peavey, this amp is NOT a replacement for the 1000..it's in addition to.. The 112 is not a comparable amp to a 1000 or the new Steel King, or any other well over 200 watt Peavey amp..Yes, it is a wondefull little amp but it is not intended to replace or compete with the big brothers.

Don't argue, play nice, if you are happy with the 50 watt amps, thats a plus for you. But also don't point at those that are using the BIG Brutes and claim they are playing too loud..perhaps years of experience playing on the bandstands have taught them a lesson or two, not just about playing music, but which gear is most appropriate as well, and how to use it appropriately too..

Last time I looked, Crayola still puts several colors in the same box....even the smallest box...

t

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[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 May 2005 at 06:24 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Having "too much power" ONLY means
you have enough for any situation.

It doesn't mean you need to use it, but it is there if you DO need it.

Steels in general need to be squeeky clean in their sound.
If you play versus a tele player with a Twin anc he cranks his 60-100w tubes will give your 400 SS a run for it's money.

He wants some grit and you want NONE.
400w really isnt that mouch in this comparison.
400w isn't 4 times as loud as 400w/

I play bass through 350w, and some nights it isn't enough.
But I avoid those gigs if I can.
Still IU couldn't see going out with much less.
not with a drummer on stage.

My steel rig is 90w x 2 open cab, and I push it'r limits some nights,
but not so hard as I would want to get a bigger amp.
It has more volume than I want to sit next to now.

But I like some grit, more country oriented plays want none.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Terje, watts are necessary for good sound. It's more about shaping your tone than it is about total volume.

Good bass response and clean sound just requires lots of watts. Here's an example. The "factory" stereo sound system in my car is made by Bose. It's rated at 425 watts, and has 8 speakers with a built-in 12" sub woofer. Do I use all those watts? Hardly, but the watts I do use sure sound nice!

Also, I'll throw in a few other thoughts. Most all tone controls in amplifiers operate on the "cut" principle. They don't add anything, they can only take away what you don't want. So, what's this mean? Simply put, an amp only gives maximum output when all the tone controls are at "maximum". Any reduction of the tone settings from "maximum" means you've lost output power. Backing the treble control off to 3 or 4, the middle control off to the same numbers, and the bass control to 6 or 7 means that the amp (at maximum volume) will now put out only about half of it's rated power! This is how "tone-shaping" reduces your output.

The moral of this story is that amps will usually put out their rated power only at totally unusable tone settings.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 June 2005 at 01:06 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 23 May 2005 6:26 am

As I read Terje's original question, it sounds to me like he is a guitar player asking why steelers need such big amps. People who don't play steel never understand this. It is not about volume. It is about sustain. Steelers typically attack their notes with the volume pedal backed off about two-thirds or even thre-quarters. The rest of the volume pedal throw is reserved to sustain the long notes. So right there you need an amp three or four times more powerful than a guitar player. Also, finger picking is not as loud as flailing at the strings with your whole arm and a flat pick. Also, fretting with a handheld bar is not as solid and loud as holding the strings against the neck and frets. Finally, steel plays thick chords that are sustained or even swelled. If the amp is not very clean it sounds too muddy. Put it all together and a steeler needs an amp four to ten times more powerful than a guitar player. If it is a solid state amp, the top third or quarter of the volume range is crap and unuseable. Therefore, you need a 200-400 watt ss amp to play along with guitars using 25 watt amps, just to keep your head above water.

When I started playing steel with a loud rockabilly band, my NV400 (200 ss watts) was maxed out and sounding like crap. I could not be heard, and my volume pedal was bumping and had no sustain left. The lead guitar plays through a 15 watt '50s Tweed Fender Deluxe (usually maxed out). He uses an EchoPlex, which probably boosts him to about 20 or 25 watts. Sometimes there is a rythmn guitar that uses a Super Reverb (40 tube watts). In most of the small rock clubs we play in, nothing is miked except the vocals. The drummer is loud, but not miked, and there is a typically loud electric bass or heavily amplified standup bass. My 200 solid state watts simply did not cut it. I got a 135 watt tube Fender Twin Reverb. It sounded much better, but was still not loud enough, and I didn't have enough sustain. Two Twins worked fine, but who wants to carry that around. I got a Super Twin (180 tube watts) in a head cabinet, with one or two 15" speakers, and that solved the problem. A 40 watt tube guitar amp can drown me out if it is cranked all the way up. But any large venue where that might happen will have a serious PA capable of miking the guitar amps.

So all the talk about stage volume is not really what this is about. With or without miked amps, the "stage" volume is what it is. The steel player is usually just another sideman, he is not in charge of the group, and cannot make anyone else change their volume, much less the whole group (ever tried to tell a drummer to play quieter? Hah). You either match the volume or get drowned out and robbed of sustain. To keep up with maxed out 25 watt tube guitar amps a steeler needs close to 200 tube watts or at least 300 solid state watts.

Of course, many steelers are in country groups that play much quieter than rock groups. There are some gigs where my 100 watt Dual Showman is more than adequate, and a 40 watt tube amp or 80 watt NV112 would be enough. I recently heard Bill Stafford and other steelers at a quiet (no alcohol) country music club in Mississippi. They played very sweet quiet country and gospel. Bill had a rack unit with I believe 200 ss watts a side going into two 15" speakers. He played very quietly, but when he hit big chords or the lowest strings on his 14-string Excel, it filled the room with a very clean undistorted sound. Maybe he doesn't crank the amp volume up all the way very often, but it's there if he ever needs it.

So the bottom line is that steel needs lots of power. It is not about volume, it is about clean chords and sustain.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 May 2005 at 07:34 AM.]

JERRY THURMOND · From: sullivan mo u.s.a.

I love my Nash 112, but Sat Night I played a gig, I had not been there before so I did not know the place was so big, must have had 500 people there, very noisey crowd. We were not playing very loud but people just kept coming up an telling me to turn up. Any way the amp just would not cut it at that level, so while on break I came direct out of the amp into the board that helped, but we did not have a sound man so I just did the best I could to stay even with the rest of the band. So from now on if I am not sure of the place I will take my 1000. The 112 is grate for small jobs but was not meant to play at loud ranges. The hightest I had the vol on the 112 was 4, then on master was 6, just to loud for that small of amp. Jerry

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Jerry, the size of the crowd may not have been the problem. It may have been the rest of the band was too loud(You'll never make them believe that). Another problem is when you run to the PA, you have to try and set a desirable tone on the PA. Not and easy task. Last week a guy set my NV112 up through his PA and I had to disconnect it because he didn't know anything about tone. If you have time to work with it you can make it sound good enough.
It's good to see you on here Jerry. It is good to see you doing well after that scary heart problem. Gene delivered your CD to me. Very Nice pickin'... Thanks.

Terje Larson · From: Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden

To David Doggett, but also to the rest of you, so it's all clear. I do not play pedal steel. In fact, I do not even play steel guitar, I play slide on an elelctric balalajka. I do play slide on regular guitar and I have played lap steel from time to time but the observation from David is correct so far.

However, since about a year back I am working with a volume pedal myself, sort of trying to emulate steel guitar sounds on my balalajka (which is impossible but fun anyway) and with this I want to say that I do understand the need for extra headroom.

Another thing I need to confess right away is also that I'm a regular volume-nazi. There has never been one gig that I thought we couldn't have done at least a little quieter. The only times I've been relatively satisfied with the overall volume at a gig are those times when I've been able to sing without strainging at all and still be heard clearly over the full band (guitar, bass, drums and my balalajka) without any sound reinforcement for my voice, except maybe the good acoustics of the room.

So, I can understand what is meant when a pedal steel player needs 400 watts to be heard over a cranked 15 watt tube amp that the guitarist next to him is using. I just think the guitarist needs to turn down in that situation. Which is something I've said in a guitar amps forum and ever since then they hate my guts but I still think that way.

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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

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