Considering This Vibrosonic...

Grant Johnson · From: Nashville TN

http://seattle.craigslist.org/msg/56787595.html

It seems to be in great shape, I have emailed the person selling it and she has never had a recone done on the speaker. It was her brother's amp who used it for clean guitar.
It seems to be rather high priced, a master volume sf twin goes for $500-600 in good shape around these parts.
Is $800 too much for this amp?

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Grant, if it is as clean as the pictures I would grab it! Also should be quiet, no hum or crackles. Speaker should not "fart" on low notes, if so it needs a re-cone. Tubes should be recent as well.

The footswitch would fetch $50.00 to $100.00 on Ebay. If the cover is original, it is a steal of a deal. Those covers are fetching around $100.00 on Ebay, too.

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 26 January 2005 at 04:18 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 26 January 2005 at 04:19 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 26 Jan 2005 5:21 pm

It's worth every penny of $800, if it is what you want. The neat thing about the Vibrosonic is that it was the only Twin sized Fender tube amp from the silver face era that was 8 ohms, so it could take a single JBL D130F 8 ohm speaker (which were only made in an 8 ohm model) with no cut in volume. All the other big Fenders were 4 ohm, and meant to use two 8 ohm speakers in parallel. So if you want a SF era big Fender tube amp with a single 15" JBL, this is the one.

Sure a regular Twin can be had for less. But if you want a 15" JBL in it, you'd have to find the JBL and pay big bucks for it. Then you would have to put a new baffle in it. You'd have to settle for about one-third less volume, because a Twin is 4 ohm and the speaker is 8 ohm. Or you would have to give up on the vintage JBL and use a more modern speaker that was made in a 4 ohm model. Also, the Twin cabinet size and shape were designed for two 12s. The Vibrosonic was designed for a single 15.

In the '90s Fender made a pc-board knock-off of the Vibrosonic and called it a Custom Vibrasonic. It had a modern 4 ohm 15" speaker in it. I've had two, and they do not sound near as good as the silver face era hand-wired Fenders.

The Vibrosonic with the JBL is the second best tube combo ever made for pedal steel. The best one was the Super Twin, but only because it had more power. But the ST had two 12s (most steelers prefer 15s, if you prefer 12s you don't want the Vibrosonic) and weighed almost a hundred pounds, and is just unmanageable as a combo (I put mine in a head cab). If you don't need that extra volume, the Vibrosonic is the one.

Fender recently started making a Custom 15 Twin. It is their 85 watt reissue Twin with a single 15" speaker. I imagine it costs about twice as much as this Vibrosonic, has less power, an inferior speaker, and no where near the tone.

If you don't buy this wonderful steel amp, I hope someone on Forum does. All those rare old Vibrosonics belong in the steel community.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 January 2005 at 05:22 PM.]

Garth Highsmith · Posted 26 Jan 2005 5:30 pm

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[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:53 PM.]

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Here's a reprint of an old article I wrote about Vibrosonics, on point;

Fender Vibrasonic History

The first Fender Vibrasonic (5G13) was made in the early 60's: brown tolex, a single 15' speaker (usually a JBL), 2x 6L6 power tubes, presence control, solid state rectifier and no reverb. It has the rare distinction of having it's front panel Volume control not adjacent to the input jacks (like almost every other Fender amp) but 'two knobs down' between the 'speed' and 'treble' controls! At the time it was built, this was the top of the line Fender amp. It was superseded soon after by the 6G13-A, which changed to 2x 5881 power tubes and added an extra vibrato (tremelo) tube. These brown amps are not as bright as later Fender amps, plus without reverb and only two 2x 6L6 power tube compliment, they are probably not the first choice amp for steel players. However, they are incredibly sought after as guitar amps and collectors pieces and undoubtedly trade for stratospheric prices due to their unique features, age, and how few of them were made.

Next came the Vibrosonic Reverb (silverface - early 70's - notice no 'a' in the name), which is the 'Twin Reverb with a 15" speaker'. With 4x 6L6 power tubes, reverb and usually, a big orange colored JBL D-130 15" speaker, this was a good steel amp, a variation on the Twin Reverb theme. Did Fender make any of these without the master volume control? I really doubt it, I've never seen one without the MV control and that would indeed be rare! But I've learned never to say 'Never' with things Fender as there are an incredible number of one-offs of all sorts of Fender products, especially here in California.

Next came the 135 watt Vibrosonic Reverb in the mid/late 70's. (My files show 2/78 but I wouldn't bet my life on it). You can tell it by: 4 amp fuse, no choke, and line out/recording jack on the back panel. This version has ultra-linear taps on the output transformer and is very similar to the corresponding Twin Reverb of its era. Another good steel amp. This amp could be modded to use a choke for a more traditional Fender amp performance. Guitar players traditionally don't care for the Fender UL amps of this period, as they are loud and clean without much overdrive possibilities from the stock circuitry and can usually be purchased for correspondingly less bucks.

And, lastly, is the Custom Vibrasonic Amp (back to the 'a' in the name), a blackface re-issue of sorts but not of any particular amp. It has 4x 6L6 power tubes, reverb (in both channels!), no negative feedback and a 4 ohm 15" speaker. These amps actually have a channel marked 'Steel' but, except for a little extra headroom in the preamp and a few bells ('sweet switch'), they bear a great resemblance to the usual Fender circuitry we've seen since the beginning of the Blackface era (AB763), but with the amp built on a printed circuitboard, as opposed to the point-to-point eyelet board of earlier Fender amps. The 15" speaker is of no special pedigree. (I know how particular, or is that peculiar, steel players can be about their choice of speaker!) If you want a Fender combo, with a 15" speaker, your choices are somewhat limited (there is the short-lived Fender 75, but this (2x 6L6) amp has less power than most of the above Vibrosonics).

Does anyone know the story on how the 'A' got changed to an 'O' and back again?

Bob Metzger
Feb 2001

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 26 January 2005 at 09:11 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 26 January 2005 at 09:15 PM.]

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

I would add that this is not the best steel amp I ever played through but a good one nonetheless. If one must play through a Fender, then your best choices are this amp or the new one that Fender has started building that's oh-so-similar to the Peavey NV400 (but more Fendery). If you don't need the low end, a Twin will do about the same thing. But each of these tube amps needs a visit to the local tech to be set up with steel guitar in mind, in my humble opinion. If you need the 'big bottom', go with the Vibrosonic.

Bob M.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, if you must have a tube Fender, this is one of the ones I'd recommend. (Basically, it's just a T/R with a different tranny and speaker.)

Warning...condition is everything! Should you have to do a re-tube and recone, figure on investing another $300, or more if someone else does the work. Also be advised that the amp will easily fry the speaker if it's pushed too hard. (Those old JBL's aren't nearly as robust as Black Widows!)

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Wow someone got into my music room and snapped a picture of my amp !!! Let me just say this ,i think this amp was one of the sweetest steel amps that was on the market except the weight of it . Mine has never let me down and i bought it new in 1976 at Sonny's Guitar shop here in Columbus Ohio .I have cranked it real loud and it is solid as a rock and no loss of power . Mine is the 100 watt model also with the 15'' Orange J.B.L speaker . Just a hint look at the forum and see what some of the great players are going back to . Check out Lloyd Green and Ricky Davis and so on . Yes they do have some modifications done on them to make them easiier to carry but none the less the same old Fender sound that most players love if they only admit it . Mine stays here in my music room and i don't take it out any more it's to valuable to me and some other folks also . I was offered $800.00 dollars for mine to . I also have
two Peavey Nashville 400 amps that i mostly play through when i play out . No this is not a contradiction . I still love my Fender Vibrosonic . I don't mean to step on anyones feet ,and this is only my honest openion . Thanks , Gary .

[This message was edited by Gary Preston on 28 January 2005 at 02:50 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Yikes.. some of you guys make a Fender amp sound like a disease... "If you MUST use a Fender tube amp",,I MUST use one... Peaveys sound sterile to my ears no matter how hard I try to like them. Even Music Man with tube output/SS preamp sound that way.. To some of us[I admit ..VERY few].. NOTHING but an all tube Fender will work..bob

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Dear Candid from Candor:

The sun rises and sets on some people's Fender universe. I merely meant to jog the Fenderaholic's memory that other amp makes actually exist out there. Some people don't consider it music unless it's played on/thru a Fender. I hope they start to build recording consoles, computers, cars and then fast-food restuarants soon!! Stop me before I Fender again.

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 02 February 2005 at 02:50 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Oh. Grant, I sent you an email before I realized that amp already had a better JBL in it. Never mind.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

.. As usual,I am getting people Po'd here without meaning to, and that wasn't my intent. I KNOW I am in the minority concerning Fender amps,and that 99% of the "big boys" are using SS amps,but they sure don't work for me.

I was one of the very first on this forum to buy a 112,and while it was a nice little steel amp, I considered it to be very sterile for 6 string guitar.. I had it for a week or so and then traded it to forumite Steve Spitz for a TUBE amp.

IMHO, the greatest tone for a steel is stuff recorded in the 60's and 70's by Brumley,Green,Mooney,Young,Black,Maness,etc.I would bet MOST used Fender amps.. THAT is the tone I have in my half empty head.

I guess it depends on which appeals to the individual more,the vintage sweet tube tone I prefer,or the bigger, cleaner, much more massive sound todays great steel guitarists prefer.... I'll take a rickety old tube Fender ANY day..

David Doggett · Posted 10 Feb 2005 8:19 am

I'm with you, Bob, only not so apologetic. I think most pros switched over to ss steel amps beginning in the '70s and never looked back. The ss amps had more watts, more clean headroom, were lighter, more reliable, and required less maintenance than most tube amps at the time. People were tired of the heavy old staticky, distortion prone tube amps. I had a BF Super Reverb and felt that way about it. I longed for a new NV400, but couldn't afford one (now a used NV400 is worth $300 and my old BF SR would go for around $3,000

).

But I think the tide has turned for some younger steelers (as it did long ago for 6-stringers), and even some old pros. Lloyd plays through Fender tubes. They are heavy, but splitting the combos into head cabinets helps. And watt for watt, tubes sound way more massive than any ss amp. People try a 300 watt ss amp and think, "wow, this has more clean headroom" than a 50 or 100 watt tube amp. Duh. But how does the 80 watt NV112 sound compared to an 80 watt Twin Reverb set up to play clean? How does the 200 watt NV400 sound compared to a 180 watt Super Twin? Now if someone would just build us a 300 watt Fender style tube amp...

Andy Zynda · From: Wisconsin

Tubes VS Solid State

Tubes = Warmer, richer harmonic content, easier to break up, sweeter breakup when it happens. HEAVIER! Generally less headroom.

Solid State = Cleaner, glassier sounding due to less harmonic content, harder to break up, harsh when it does, LIGHTER, and usually more headroom.

Both have their good and bad points, and the instrument and application are the key factors! I dont like Steel thru tubes unless it's lapsteel-blues, and I hate Guitar thru transistors, unless it's acoustic guitar or PSG.

I love a slightly crunching Fender Tube amp for guitar, but hate it for steel.

I love the glassy sound of a SS amp, with a PSG and/or a Acoustic-Electric guitar, and hate them through a tube amp.

It all depends..............
-andy-

Andy Zynda · From: Wisconsin

Oh yeah, $800 is dirt cheap for that wonderful machine.
.02
-andy-

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

David.. I can always count on you to back up my "Fender fetish"!!.. Like you, I use head/cabs these days.. Light as a feather and BIG tube sound. As far as "headroom" is concerned.. Geez how much does ANYONE really need?? If a good running 100 Watt Fender Twin/Showman/Super Twin /140 /etc with w/1x15 JBL isnt clean enough.. I think the band is too loud! bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 10 February 2005 at 11:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 10 February 2005 at 11:35 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 10 Feb 2005 2:49 pm

Bob, I was sort of joking about the 300 watt tube amp. Some ss guys think they need a 300 watt amp, but that is partly because the top third of a ss amp's volume range is too crappy sounding to use. I would bet that a 180 watt Super Twin puts out as much usable volume as a NV1000. I know from personal experience that my ST puts out way more usable volume than a 200 watt NV400. Even a 135 watt SF Twin beats the NV400. That is enough volume for many gigs, especially if miking the amp is possible. But I have two rock-club groups I play with that require all of the ST's 180 watts. A Twin will play almost loud enough, but I am bumping the volume pedal and running out of sustain at top volume. I friend of mine has sat in on pedal steel with these same rockers with his Twin and had the same experience. Many of these rinky-dink rock clubs aren't prepared to mike the amps, and no one else in these groups is miking their amp. Six-stringers with 25 and 50 watt tube amps will drown out my Dual Showman, but with my Super Twin I can hang right in there with them. If I ever get into a situation where the ST is not enough, I'm gettin' out the ear plugs and demanding a mike.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

David.. You are RIGHT ON about the ST.. When I had mine,everyone else I played with had to try to hang with ME.. and it wasn't easy on them!!.. I had two original D120 F JBLs in that amp.. what a sound!!.. I use a Showman head these days and it is JUST enough for my loud rock gig, but its about maxed I would say.. NO more room!...Another REAL bargain these days is the Fender PA 100 head.. all hand wired same amp as a Showman or Twin Reverb.. I just sold one SHIPPED for $275.. I have seen them as cheap as $200.. for a friggin 100 watt all tube Fender amp w tube reverb!!!...Another amp that gets little attention from steelers is the Traynor Mark III... 100 SUPER loud watts.. 4 EL 34.. all tubes and an EL 84 powered tube reverb. MUCH louder and cleaner than the 100 watt Fenders.. MUCH more headroom too. I owned 3 of them .. wish I still had one.. They are starting to fetch Fender type prices unfortunately! bob

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

My beef with Fender tube amps is not necessarily headroom but lack of midrange EQ.The EQ on Twins and the like does almost nothing. If the native tone of those amps does it for you then you're in luck. But if you want to scoop out 8db of 2K,you're gonna need some outboard EQ. I've been there - done that in a pinch on the road and was glad I brought along my 10 band MXR graphic EQ.
-MJ-

David Doggett · Posted 11 Feb 2005 8:13 am

Bob, the Traynors sound interesting, I've always heard good things about them, but haven't had the opportunity to try one. But from my limited experience with EL34 powered amps, I have to say I prefer the 6L6 sound. The EL34s have a bright clarion-like chiming sound to me - very clear. Some people love that. I prefer the harmonic complexity the 6L6s introduce. Their sound is not as pure and clear - they have a sort of grainy texture that I love. Probably the technical explanation is that the EL34s emphasize the higher harmonics, and 6L6s emphasize lower ones. The guitarist in one of my groups got one of the reissue Tweed Twins. It is a Custom Shop hand-wired replica with EL34s. Playing my Zum through it, it had a bright clear sound that really cut through the mix, but I still preferred the more harmonically textured sound of my silver-face amps with 6l6s. But I have to say that I have a Music Man amp that has a solid state preamp and uses 6L6s for the power amp. It sounds better than an all ss amp, and I can hear the harmonics of the power tubes, but the ss preamp manages to make them sound muffled and brittle and without the sparkle. So I guess I like the interplay of a tube preamp and 6L6 power tubes. Also, not too long ago I played through a new Fender Bassman with eight 6L6s. Of course it had headroom to spare, but it had a clean sterile sound not at all like the old Fenders. I had thought it would be my dream amp, but I didn't care for it. Maybe I just wasn't driving the power tubes hard enough, but I wouldn't want to be on the same side of town if that baby was opened up anywhere close to its maximum output.

Michael, the mids produced by the old tube Fenders depend a lot on the speakers used. These amps have a huge mid scoop built in already. Playing pedal steel with 12" speakers I have to dial the treble way down, the bass way up, and the mids backed off a little from straight up. But when I play the same amp through 15" speakers (which I prefer), I have the treble and bass on 3 or 4, and have to turn the mid up to around 8. So apparently the mid scoop built into the Fenders is enough for me with 12s, and actually a little too much with a 15.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 February 2005 at 08:27 AM.]

Guest · Posted 11 Feb 2005 11:21 am

I have one of those with the Altec Lansing 15 in it and it sounds great but man is that thing heavy. I usually carry a NV400 (or two) or bring my wife to do the heavy lifting!

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