Faking Speaker Response Curves

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I've been assembling a collection of preamps and pedals for my six string and steel - and have been running trials through the speaker simulator in my Roland VS 890. I can't believe how much difference there is between amp speakers! In fact - I'm starting to believe that one preamp and many speakers is a more effective route than many preamps and one speaker.

When it comes to the "real" thing, however, I don't want to have 10 cabinets around (like some of you...) because I can't afford any more gear.

However - I want to be able to use some sort of freq. control to dial in multitudes of 'pseudo'-speakers. I also need to know what the response curves look like on the classic "standards" to be able to make some presets.

Suggestions on how to accomplish this ?

[Incidently - only about 2 or 3 sims on the VS are close to being ok - so that option is limited out]

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 07 July 2004 at 09:24 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 07 July 2004 at 09:25 PM.]

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

Now the "key" word is simulator..Simulation is not, can not be real,only an approximate... Keep in mind that NO two speakers, i.e. transducers are EXACTLY alike, in response , frequency wise. The published response curves are only averages , and slanted to what is desired by the publisher. It is imposable to have one spkr do all... A combination of spkrs to get the desired effect is normal. That is why we have , Bass, mid-range. and tweeters to acomplish a broad frequency response...Now , Guitars are onl capable of certain frequencies and each is taylored to a certain range, so you have to be goverend so. strive to accomplish the sound you like and forget the rest. Reg. Jennings

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

William Peters · From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA

Tom,

If you want a lot of different sounds, without a lot of different hardware, maybe you should look at one of the modeling preamps thats on the market, like the Pod, or the V-amp Pro. These model different amps, and different speaker combinations. Sounds like exactly what you want to do, if I read your post correctly.

I don't have a Pod, but I do have a V-amp, and a tubefex, both having different speaker emulations. I use them through wide range PA speakers (close to flat frequency response). It doesn't work very well going through guitar speakers, but PA speakers work great. My speakers are Emminence BP102s in a 1 cu foot ported enclosure with piezo horn tweeters. Even though they are small, they sound really good when used with the tubefex or the V-amp.

The Pod is pretty expensive I think, but is probably a lot better (higer quality) than the V-amp. The V-amp has some background noise problems, and is not very strong mechanically.

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Bill

http://www.wgpeters.com
Cougar SD-10, PV-260, Tubefex, PV TNT-115, Gibson SG, Squier P-Bass, Berhinger V-amp Pro

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Just my opinion:
Most of the devices that do simulation are intended for (or best used for) direct recording. The intent is to recreate tonal characteristics of various speakers alone or in combinations commonly seen in guitar amps. You'll see various 10" and 12" combos up to 4x12 on most but rarely a 15". Therein may lie some of the problem for steel: most of us are used to amps with 15" speakers.

It wasn't clear from your post whether you were hoping to get a live simulation of various speakers. I would (and have) used both amp and speaker sim direct-to-board in the studio with pretty good results but whenever I tried to do the same through one of my Standel, Fender, or Peavey amps, it was no better than the amp itself and was usually difficult to dial in the EQ on my old standby amps. It also didn't really sound like a Bassman 2x12 cabinet (for example). I know -- I actually play through one sometimes.

I'd suggest sticking to direct recording for the sims. If you're using a real cabinet, it will override the sim and the simulation will make things sound strange (at best). What you are attempting may be possible with a pre / amp / speaker combo that's very close to flat (NO TONE OF ITS OWN), like a studio reference amp and monitors, but that's gonna get pricey for something with enough power to play gigs on.

Maybe that's why I have 2 guitars, but SIX different amps with both 12 and 15" speaker choices. (and maybe I'm just a packrat)
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 July 2004 at 06:09 PM.]

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

I say forget the curves. Turn knobs and push buttons 'til you get the sound you want from your equipment. Let your ear be the judge.
After all you can't feed your audience response curves. They thrive on the sound of music. . JD

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tom, when it comes to equipment tone, there are two major factors, EQ and overtones. Yes, there's differences between speakers, preamps, guitars, strings, etc.. However, a lot of players fail to realize that when they change something like a pickup to change their "tone", most of what they are doing is changing the EQ...the frequency response. With enough EQ, you can make any pickups clean sound with the one you have. So, if you want maximum tonal variation, you just need maximum EQ.

I've always been disappointed with modeling amps for use on steel. On straight guitar, you're often looking for harmonic overdrive, "crunch", and bite factors. Modeling amps do these things okay. They allow you to emulate various types and degrees of overdrive and distortion. They fail miserably, however, at emulating clean sounds and different speakers, in particular. Speakers are the last link in the sound chain, so their sound characteristics are hardest to modify. Yes, if you can change the tone up front enough, and the power enough, it will be reflected (with varying success) in the speaker, but there's just no way you can make a Twin sound like a Showman, or vice-versa. Tens, twelves, and fifteens all have a unique character, and these characters are almost impossible to replicate in their many open-back and closed-back variations.

In addition, most "good" amps have pretty wide tonal variation, so when the patch in an amp simulator says "Fender Twin Reverb", what the heck are they they talking about? They're talking about one particular setting that some doofus has selected as representational in an amp that has many distinct tones and sounds! And, that setting is probably a "straight guitar" setting! So you see, from my viewpoint, modeling amps are only "smoke and mirrors" for our purposes. Not one made has the power and speakers to make a good go of it for steel.

Ordinary tone stack controls and parametric-equalizers don't cut it in the tone department, either. They don't offer enough control. Modeling amps are very limited, too, where clean tones are concerned. For my money, if I wanted maximum tonal variation from an amp, I'd pick one with a good (5-8 band) GRAPHIC EQUALIZER, or I'd buy a similar outboard GRAPHIC EQUALIZER. Now, hook that up to a good amp/speaker combination, and you'll have dozens of distinct tones that will make everyone else drool with envy...tones they'll never be able to get (without something similar).

And if you want "small amp" distortion sounds for the straight guitar, you might find it easier to buy a dedicated small amp for that, rather than trying to dial it or coax it from some "simulator", anyway.

That's my2cents, but John Daugherty's advice is good too!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 July 2004 at 06:28 PM.]

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Thanks folks.

My 'audience' is lonely me for the foreseeable future. Truth is - my interests are moving from playing to sound engineering - and (as so many before me...) as I gain more knowledge about what is possible - the demand for quality goes exponential.

I don't have outboard eq's. I think that's a good angle - but can I use an outboard eq to "model" a speaker - without actually having to send through a speaker - so I can go direct to board with no speaker?

Also, I find that most preamps have hardwired internal "Pre-EQ" that give the manufacturer "their" sound. I want to explore the possibilities with MY specific instruments rather than being locked into into preset voicing(s).

It would be nice to have an unfiltered 2 or three stage tube preamp, with a multi-band Pre and Post EQ, perhaps with variable eq center points. After all - the "guts" of the preamp is similar across most manufacturers.

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