Separate PUPs for high and low strings

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jun 2004 9:27 am

Surely someone has tried this at one time or another. One of the tone problems for pedal steel seems to be that the low strings sound better with the treble and presence turned up, to give good string separation and prevent muddiness, but then the high strings sound too shrill. Conversely, when you turn the treble and presence down to mellow out the high strings, the low strings get muddy.

Why not have separate pickups for the high and low strings. Put a tone control on one of the lines in front of the amp, then run them both into the same amp channel (you wouldn't need this if you had two separate but identical channels in the amp with separate EQ). Use the amp EQ to set the tone for one pickup, and the separate tone control to set the tone for the other pickup. One question is, which strings would you want the separate tone control for. You could boost the bass on the amp, then use the separate tone control to cut the bass for the low strings; or you could boost the treble and presence on the amp, and use the separate tone control to cut the highs for the high strings. Or I suppose you could set the amp controls pretty flat, and put a separate tone control on both pickups.

Another advantage of two pups would be that you could put the pup for the low strings nearest the changer, and the pup for the higher strings further from the changer to get more mellow harmonics. In fact, that alone might really help, without any adjustments to EQ.

This would be easy to try on a 12-string neck, because you could just get a couple of 6-string pickups. Anyone have any ideas about some inexpensive but decent 6-string pickups to experiment with? Also, it would be nice if they were slim enough to slip under the strings without having to make cutouts in the neck, at least for the purposes of experimentation.

What y'all think?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

David, the problem then would be the transition, or at what string the pickup changed distance. Those with a plain 6th might want the transition on strings past the 6th string, while those with a wound 6th may want it at the 6th string. I feel the real answer is a good graphic equalizer in steel amps. This would give us far greater control over the tone than the standard bass-mid-treble controls. Couple this with an adjustable pickup on the steel, I think this would give us the control we've all been searching for.

So far, though, steel and amp manufacturers apparently aren't convinced.

Pity.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 14 June 2004 at 10:53 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I'd like to see more discussion of this. I was in the process of trying to frame a similar question a while ago but got diverted. Here are some questions that I had in mind at the time--
---would there be impedance issues if you summed the two pickup signals before the volume pedal? Would you need a true stereo volume pedal (in and out)?
I agree that balancing the split point would be an issue. But how about a single (or split) slant like a Tele bridge pickup?
I LONG for the ability to get a tight twang out of my bottom strings.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Not only has it been tried, but none other than Buddy Charleton played one. It was called a stereo PU. The top 5 strings went to one amp and the bottom 5 went to the other amp. If I am not mistaken the first Emmons' P/P's had a stereo PU also. Not sure.

It is my understanding the idea quickly died, because some players could hear "crosstalk" between strings 5 and 6 in one or both amps. I know this because the person who told it to me was the late and great Gene O'Neal who I believe had one of the PU's also.

carl

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

Dave, i think you have a great idea, as I have a 12 string, in a stagger I would put the high string pickup higher up the towards the fretboard and the lower strings near the changer

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Didn't Gibson have a pickup like this on one of their non-pedal steels? I seem to remember seeing a Gibby with a huge pickup for sale on ebay.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jun 2004 11:33 am

Oh yeah, I forgot about the volume pedal. You'd have to have a completely stereo pedal with two separate ins, each with it's own out. Or you'd have to put your foot across two volume pedals, or mechanically connect them in some way.

Yes, which strings to put the pups under would be an issue. I use six plains and six wounds, so I was hoping it would be that simple, but who knows until you try it.

Crosstalk...hmmmm.... Shucks! Another beautiful theory destroyed by the ugly facts. There may be some way to cancel or minimize the crosstalk electronically, but that's getting way beyond the simple experiment I wanted to try.

Okay, then how about a slanted pup? It would be slanted in the opposite way from a strat pup. The low strings would be closer to the changer/bridge to get more bite, the high strings further out to be more mellow.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jun 2004 11:45 am

Thinking about a simple fix for the crosstalk, how about if you used a pup with those individually adjustable height screws for each string. You could lower the height under strings 5 and 6 (or 6 and 7 on a 12-string). That would weaken the cross talk. It would also weaken the main signal for each string, but the cross talk would make up for that. So basically you would be sort of mixing the signal from those two strings between both pups. That would lessen the impact of the different EQs for those two strings, but maybe those middle strings don't need the different EQs so much.

Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

John, Yes, Gibson did do that. I have a 1956 Gibson Console Grande which has a "4-8-4" pick up. There are actually 3 separate pickups in the assembly: A 4 string bass pickup, a middle pickup which covers all 8 strings, and a treble pickup for the 4 treble strings.
They have a complicated switching and equalizing network to operate it.
Blake

David Doggett · Posted 15 Jun 2004 5:53 am

So with the Gibson system Blake describes you seem to adjust the EQ separately for the two pups, then combine them back into a single signal before going into a single channel on the amp (that also allows use of a regular volume pedal). Is that right Blake? Does that eliminate the cross-talk problem? I mean, how can you have cross-talk in the same channel? Does anyone know if you can combine the signals with just a simple Y connector, or would it take some fancy circuitry? and how does that Gibson sound Blake?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 June 2004 at 06:58 AM.]

Ben Slaughter · From: Madera, California

I heard Brent Mason talk about the bridge pickup in his tele one time. He said it was a hybred p/u that Seymour Duncan custom made. Gave him more bite on the low, and less harsh on the high.

I've also noticed that G&L guitars are using what they call a Z-coil pickup, putting the the magnets for the low string closer to the neck. You could use this same concept but swap, make the low strings closer to the bridge. But it's all in 1 pickup, so no crosstalk issues. I'm just guessing here, I'm not much of a techy.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Jason Lollar has made some very interesting ones ...

Multiple Coil Pickups

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Ralph Willsey · From: Ottawa Valley, Canada

It seems Mr. Lollar has "stolen" my idea: a pickup for each string, permitting individualized EQ and amazing surround effects, or whatever you want. RW

Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

David,
I'd like to talk with the guy who designed that Gibson pickup.

The three pickups are connected in series and there is a complex switching arrangement which selectivly shorts coils and adds capacitors to come up with different basic sounds.
The switch has 4 positions and is calibrated:
"Bass" "Normal" "Treble and "Chime."
The only position I find that is useful is
"Chime." With that there is a full range sound and with some adjusting of my Nashville 400 amp it is playable.
There is a tone switch on each neck, plus a
"Master Tone" which is a standard pot and cap in the output of the guitar.
The magnets in the pickups are phased.
The bass and treble pickups have the North pole facing the strings and the middle pickup
has the south pole facing the strings.
At first, I was disappointed in the sound,
but now I play it every day at home and at jams so I am used to it.
Blake

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

How about mounting the pickup on a slant instead of straight up ?? As is done on some 6-string guitars.....you could angle the top end of the pickup away from the bridge/changer end to make the higher strings a little more mellow.

Scott Appleton · From: Ashland, Oregon

Mitchell Holman the bass player from Its A Beutifull Day builds PU's for bass or anything that has seperate coils for each string sent to a custom preamp with individual gain volume and tone ajustments. That could do it. Be worth a try. I know he was working building a stick like bass from stand up bass necks and included these PU's somewhere in
SF.

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Mullen S12
Acoustic 165 100W tube
71 Tele, Regal 45, Gretch
Lap, Columbia Lap, Magnatone S8, Line 6 flextone 3, JBL d130,

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

How about using an electronic crossover to split the signal at a chosen frequency (right between the plain strings and wound strings), and then out to separate preamp channels of a two channel combo amp (maybe a Vegas 400 or a Twin Reverb).
GC sells 'em, and if your not completely satisfied, you can bring it back within 30 days (and then go buy it from your local Mom & Pop).

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 19 June 2004 at 09:14 AM.]

Bill cole · From: Cheektowaga, New York, USA

I would bet that Bill Lawrence has already thought this whole thing out and tossed it out as not workable call him and ask--1-877-647-2651

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