Keeping the right level without monitors

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

Since steel is going through the volume pedal, you have to be responsible for your own levels...

Coming up on a situation soon where there will be me, and a bass on stage going through our own amps, and acoustic instruments (guy on acoustic guitar, guy on fiddle, guy on acoustic/fiddle/mandolin in rotation... and some sort of drummer in the mix) that are going to be miked or direct to the PA...

No monitors, as I understand it... anybody have any advice for getting an idea of how much too quiet or too loud I'm getting?? I don't know whether other folks have had this experience, and how you all deal with it. The onstage amps will most definitely not be miked, it's a pretty smallish room, as far as I know.

Nate LaPointe · From: Los Angeles, California, USA

I do gigs like this from time to time, and what works for me is to play like I were mixing the band but loud enough to hear myself. That way I things are kept as even as possible while still having my monitor(amp) loud enough to hear myself.

David Doggett · Posted 5 Apr 2004 10:56 am

I frequently have the same problem. Put your amp as far toward the back as possible, same for the bass amp. Whether on the floor or a stand (preferable), make sure it is pointing at the middle of the back of the room, and not pointed or tilted directly at your head. Without a monitor, you will be trying to match your sound to the bass and drums. That is why you want your amp back there with them, not sitting right next to you pointing at your head. Everyone playing through the PA will have to depend on someone out front to tell them if they are matching the bass and drums okay. If this doesn't work, to hell with everyone else. You play as loud as you can the same as everyone else is doing.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Have your wife run sound.

Larry Behm

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

When you look up and see the room has emtied you will automatically associate a happening with it. OR, when the fruit/vegetables start arriving at where-ist you sit; same message as above.
Monitors are a relatively NEW DEAL (1980'ish), like LEAD DRUMS; LOUD SHRILL LEAD GUITARS THAT WALK ON EVERYONE ELSE, and electronic keyboards, etc. Never used to have them and played stage, live radio and live televison and never had a problem.
It's funny.....the Grand Ole Opry, Louisiana Hayride, Mid-West Barn Dance, that made country music so very, very famous in those early days of radio...(without a picture!)...and made stars out of the likes of Chet Atkins, Billy Robinson, Grady Martin, Jerry Byrd, Hank Garland, and hundres of other equally talented musicians........didn't have them.
AND, only since the advent of stage monitors and soundmen and ear phones........has it become nearly impossible to hear oneself think when trying to play with many of these new groups.
Oh, I think it was about the same time that someone discovered musician deafness and INVENTED EAR PLUGS!!!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The only real way to tell your relationship with the PA is to be as close to PA front line,
or out in front of the PA spealer a bit, but not directly in front of it.

If the singers or acoustic mics are set up on the other side of the stage the PA speaker on your side could be pulled back a bit
with you right up front on the stage.
Then you just play to the relationship of your amps far back and what is coming from the PA.

If your behind the PA, assume it is louder and brighter than what you hear.

Drew Howard · From: 48854

Depending on venue size, you could forego micing drums, which won't help stage volume much but will make "FOH" mix much easier.

At my regular Monday night gig the venue is enough of a hole in the wall that we don't need to mic steel, Tele, or drums.

FWIW,
Drew

------------------
Drew's Website

Ronald Moore · From: Mindoro, Wisconsin, USA

Our bass player also is our sound man. He has a wireless setup, not so he can dance around the stage or go out and flirt with the ladies, but so he can see what we sound like out in the crowd. He walks around out in the crowd mainly in the beginning of the job and he sets up the PA and advises any of us on tone, volume, or whatever all while doing a great job on bass. As a result we never get complaints on our volume. That wireless hookup can be worth it's weight in gold if used for this reason. Ron

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Nick,
Along with not pointing the amp at my head I wear earplugs so I play loud enough to cover the room.

BTW: These days in concert or larger club situations I almost always avoid monitors. I tell the sound man too turn mine off. If he forgets I unplug it or point it somewhere else. If I can keep the stage volume low enough around me I am able to focus my attention on whatever sounds I need to play.

Bob

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Bob is Right.

Mind you this acoustic type setting you describe will not need big wattage.

Point your amp away from your ears, preferably pointing it up at the ceiling ( about a 60deg angle) out of your ear plane, and TURN IT UP. You'll get coverage without any "Hot Spots".Especially if you need to play "quietly" to match acoustic instruments.

As mentioned, being slightly in front of the PA is the best.

In years gone by I remember bands with Shure Stacks up on the wall behind the band. No monitors at all.

Ear plugs only if you find people want it louder than is comfortable for you.

No problem. People have been playing LOUD for 50 YEARS with no miked amps or monitors.

Look at Buck Owens and some of his old stage setups. Somebody posted a pic of them not to long ago in a non miked setting. They were LOUDER THAN HELL!

This in mind, playing an "acoustic type gig" should be a breeze using the tilt-up technique.

You'll do fine.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 April 2004 at 08:27 PM.]

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Considering the ensemble will consist of acoustic guitar, fiddle, mandolin. Plus your steel, electric bass and drums. My oppinion would be to let the acoustic instruments be the "sound level" control. NOT the drums. The drummer will have to be very careful of his/her dynamics. Brushes should be considered as an option, if nessessary. With that said, your steel playing should be kept at a volume level to compliment the acoustic music. The bass player should take his que from the drummer. If there is a "Front-of House" sound man, let him set the PA for the audience. Basically, since the acoustic instruments have a lower decibel limit, they need to set the overall volume limits. The sound man may need to mic those instruments rather than any drums or amps. IMO, miked drums are for loud/arena performances. And in those cases, only for audio separation (preventing feedback and muddy sounding drums).

If the levels are right, monitors probably won't be needed.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 07 April 2004 at 06:32 AM.]

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 07 April 2004 at 06:36 AM.]

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 07 April 2004 at 06:41 AM.]

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

It will be probably just snare with brushes...

Plus, this is basically just a tune-up sort of thing... nothing too serious; the guy who's putting things together figured it would be a good dry run to go play a club a friend of his owns... not too intense, a chance to go through the paces.

Levels sitting behind the spread of the P.A. will, I fear, make the acoustic instruments harder to hear, and make it difficult for me to understand whether I am audible, too loud, too quiet or whatever... it's a small enough place that I would figure one of us is going to be hooking up all the stuff to the board, and doing levels, such as they are.

I figure I can tell how I'm doing in relation to the bass, which will also be an onstage amp, and possibly the drummer... but a fiddle amplified through a speaker ten feet in front of me, pointed away from me, compared with an amp I'm playing through, and sitting in front of... it just gave me a little uncertainty to think about it.

David Doggett · Posted 7 Apr 2004 10:45 am

Here's an idea, put your amp out in front near the PA speaker. Since the PA speaker is closed back, and your amp is probably open back, you will sound louder to yourself than you really are out front, and so you will be able to hear yourself well. You would then play a little louder that you think you should. All the early guitar amps in the '50s were designed to be played out front. They had their controls on the back of the amp facing backwards. Also, the extra channels on guitar amps were frequently used to mic the vocals - not great by todays standards, but it worked.

I disagree with pointing a speaker at the ceiling. When I have seen other steelers do that, I have not been able to hear them out front, and what I could hear sounded muddy, because the highs are the most directional. Seems like speakers should be pointed at the audience.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

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