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Author Topic:  Got My Old Amp Back
Randy Beavers


From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:08 am    
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Back in about 1990 I sold a Music Man 115-HD 150. The best sounding tube amp I've played. I've regretted it ever since. About a month ago I went on a quest to find another one for that old tube tone. I traced the guy down that bought mine, called him up and asked if he would sell it back. He said yes. I sold it to him without the speaker, an EVM 15". He had a K-130 JBL in it that I didn't like so I bought it back just the way I sold it to him. I'm going to put an Eminance Delta Lite in it.

My question is about the tubes. It has 4 6L6's. There are alot of different tubes out there that apparently have different sounds to them. Does anyone have any recomendations for the cleanest sounding ones? Before I sold it I put Peavey 6L6's in it and was happy. I just want to see what the options are. Also, about biasing? I didn't have it re-biased when I changed them before. Is it really necessary if you use matched tubes?

Thanks,
Randy
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:26 am    
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Lots of good people to buy from and lots of good opinions on tubes. I don't have enough experience to compare one with another but I have had very good results with JJ Teslas. I buy from Bob Pletka at http://www.eurotubes.com/

Order on Monday, tell him what you are putting them in and he'll select an appropriate quad and they will be in your mailbox Wednesday.

The rep on these tubes is that besides sounding good (maybe not spectacular but definitely good) they are robust and can take some abuse.
This means that they will probably survive a mis-biased amp. But to get the best sound and life-span out of a tube they should be biased for optimum performance.
I repeat---my experience is minimal but I am running these tubes in a couple of different amps. I also use the JJ 12AX7 and AT7's in the preamps. Is this MM the hybrid solid state/tube model or is it tube preamp?

-----
BTW--nothing sweeter than netting that fish that got off the hook.

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 19 October 2003 at 08:31 AM.]

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Ken Fox


From:
Nashville GA USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:36 am    
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I only use JJ tubes in all my amps and amps I repair/restore. Another favorite for others is the Svetlana 6L6GC.
For about a year I used NOS RCA, Sylvania and others. I am so pleased with these tubes that I do not plan to go back to NOS tubes.
JJ also just copied the old Mullard GZ34 and it is getting great revues. Their next one is a much need 6V6GT, for those Deluxe, Princeton, and Champ amps! Current production 6V6GT are not getting favorible reviews, to many failures. The problem for Deluxe Reverbs and Deluxes is that Leo Fender designed these amps with plate voltages in the 400 volt range. A 6V6GT was never designed for those voltages! The NOS tubes can handle it, but they are a premium priced tube. Hopefully the JJ tube will be out soon.
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Joey Ace


From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:41 am    
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Hi Randy,
I shy away from Sylvania, because the one's I had long ago were noisy.

Other than that I have no real preference, as long as the set is matched.
Heres two reviews by two great Amp Techs.

(I only use tubes for standard guitar so maybe this is not a valid comment for this forum).


BTW,
Mike Sweeney told me some great things about you. I look forward to meeting you in CT. I'll only be there Saturday afternoon.

-j0ey-

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 19 October 2003 at 08:46 AM.]

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Dennis Detweiler


From:
Solon, Iowa, US
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:45 am    
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I put Tesla in my Classic 50/50. They added more clean headroom and great tone to my liking.
Dennis
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John McGann

 

From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:52 am    
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Hey Randy- thanks for the great CD which arrived the other day!

I'd suggest getting the amp biased to optimize your new tubes- like so many things, they come in a range of tolerances, and a good tech will optimize the amp's performance to suit what you want- including the headroom issue, if you are going for loud and clean ( and who wouldn't be with steel!), the bias settings will make a difference.
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Randy Beavers


From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 7:56 am    
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Wow, this is great. I thought I might have trouble getting information on tubes.

This amp has a solid state pre-amp and a tube power amp. Very warm mid-range and brilliant highs that blend together rather than cut you. It has good bass but it could be better. I found to compensate for this, the secret is in the treble control. The treble overrides the bass control. So if I run the treble between 3 and 4, it is still nice and bright but the bass control works better. Something could probably be done internally to voice the amp differently.

One thing I always noticed about this amp, I played it for 8 or 9 years, the tubes never get very hot. I could play a 4 hour job, very loud, and at the end of the night I could reach back and touch the tubes and not get burned. Don't try this with a Twin!
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Larry Clark

 

From:
Herndon, VA.
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 8:15 am    
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You'll probably find some info here:

http://www.pacair.com/mmamps/
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Rainer Hackstaette


From:
Bohmte, Germany
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 8:17 am    
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Randy,

you will find a load of information on the old MusicMan amps here, including schematics, parts list, info on biasing and replacement tubes. There is also a message board where you could ask your questions.

Hope to have helped,
Rainer

Larry beat me by 2 minutes!
------------------
Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD


[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 19 October 2003 at 09:18 AM.]

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Ken Fox


From:
Nashville GA USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 8:50 am    
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There is not much you do with the tube bias. Music Man amps use a zener diode as a regulator (+22VDC) to keep the tube bias constant. I worked on a 65 watt model a while back, the zener was shot and the tubes were basically off!
It is a good system, but would require some interesting modding to make adjustable. These are some of the best sounding amps out there, good deal on getting it back.
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Jack Francis

 

From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 9:13 am    
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I don't know anything... but the amp gugu (Zinky) that used to be a big deal at Fender went though my Twin and put in Ruby tubes...they sound good to me.
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 9:19 am    
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Can't argue with a gugu.
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John Bechtel


From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 10:28 am    
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Randy; As you know me, you also know that I know nothing! However; in all the Fender tube-amps that I ever owned, I always replaced the 6l6GB's/GC's with Industrial-Quality 'matched-pairs' of 5881's, and adjusted the bias by ear, until all the 'hiss' (as much as possible) was gone. The best sounding Amp that I ever owned was a 1980 Fender Twin-Revrb with (2) 12" K-120 JBL's and (4) 5881's. JMHO! If anyone can create a great-sound, you can! You've got it cooking!

------------------
“Big John” {(<< Uh~
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels
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Randy Beavers


From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 10:41 am    
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Thanks for all the information! Now that I'm starting to do some research I'm finding out some of the Music Man Amps had adjustable bias and some didn't. According to the Music Man Forum this one does. Since I'm a little passionate about this old amp I'll take it to someone who works on tube amps. The JJ tubes look like the way to go to me also. Any recomendations for a technician in the Nashville area?

Larry and Rainer, thanks for the Music Man Forum site info. Alot of information there.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 19 October 2003 at 11:45 AM.]

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Ken Fox


From:
Nashville GA USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 10:55 am    
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I just downloaded the schematic on your amp, no bias pot. Maybe yours will be an exception to the rule!
On Fender amps bias adjust was not put on Tweed era, Brown era or later (after about 1969) Silverface era amps. Silverface era amps had a bias balance (power tube balance pot). Some also had a hum balance for the 6.3 volt heater voltasges. You would, as above, adjust both for minimum hum. One of the most common Blackface mods I do is top change this to balance pot to an adjustable bias control.
The Deluxe Reverb is an exception, it remained a bias adjust.
The new Fender Blues Deluxe and Deville had no adjustment either. The New Hotrod Series does however have an adjustment pot. Point in case, you have to check each amps schematics to be certain what you have.
Too cold a bias setting will sound bad for sure. I had a 1965 Twin Reissue for a while. It was biased cold at 16 to 17 ma per tube. After getting it up to around 32 ma per tube it came to life and sounded like a real Fender amp again!
I think with a good set of new matched power tubes your amp will sound pretty good. After I repaired that little 65 watt Musicman, I was really surprised at what a great sounding amp it was! They had a very good hybrid amp design. Also the handwiring was very nice in that amp, a real quality amp. I think these amps are some real "sleepers" for value and tone.
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 11:05 am    
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I've got a Peavey Classic VT series 212 combo. 2 x 6L6 with solid state preamp. I had this on the shelf for 18 years. Tried it recently and found that if you dial it in carefully and go into a good speaker it sounds really good for steel. I've cut it down to a head and run it into a Weber Cali speaker. That combination of clean preamp and tube power amp can work very nicely. Incidentally--I put Ruby Tubes in it 18 years ago--made in China....I don't know what tubes Ruby uses these days. I replaced them last month with JJ's and actually found that I liked the Ruby's better and put them back in. Go figure.
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Dennis Detweiler


From:
Solon, Iowa, US
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 12:46 pm    
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John LeMay has good knowledge and history of hot rodding and restoring tube amps. He has the schematics for nearly all tube amps at his disposal. You'd have to email him directly for specific info and prices for the MusicMan www.miracle-audio.com
email: miracleaud@aol.com
"Go Get A GuGu, They're Good!"
Dennis
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Randy Beavers


From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 2:08 pm    
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Ken,

I didn't think there was an adjustment pot on the 150 watt amps. I was going by what someone said on the M-M Forum. If there's not a bias pot, I'm good to just plug in new tubes and play right? I mentioned that the tubes never get real hot. Is this by design, or should they be running hotter? It never had a power problem. It would get real loud and stay clean. When I changed the original tubes the amp was starting to lose its deffinition in string separation. Not really distortion though. Also the bass wasn't punchy. The amp really sounds good now but I know the tubes have in there for about 12 to 13 years. However, I'm sure they don't have more than 100 hours on them. The guy that had the amp hardly ever played it, and when he did it was at his house at low volume.

Do you know who makes the Peavey tubes?
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Bill Hatcher

 

From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 2:42 pm    
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Randall,

I have fixed a bunch of Fender amps but no MM stuff. In as much as tubes are concerned there are only a few manuf. plants on the earth that are making tubes. Basically you got your Chinese and you got your Sovietish stuff. The more you pay for the tube you are paying for packaging, hype, advertising, hype and hype.
Best thing you could find would be a quad of NOS matched USA tubes no matter what they were. They will be expensive.

Next best thing in my opinion--worthless to everyone except me---would be to buy a simple matched set of Sovtek whatevers that are advertised as 6l6 copies. Get them online or at a music store and pay as little as you have to. I used to buy dozens and dozens of these to repair Fender amps and never had a problem with any of them. They are reasonably priced. If you knew the bias setting on your amp, if it is a fixed bias, you can buy tubes rated according to output when testing that you could just plug in and be assured of getting close to your best sound.

If you take you amp to a tech, go ahead and have him change out ALL the electrolytic caps in the amp. Probably needs it. Tube amps are the best!! Nothing like the smell of burning tolex.
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Bill Hatcher

 

From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 2:59 pm    
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Mr. Bechtel,

You say you biased the amp by "ear" by listening to the hiss. There is a better way that will assure the best results.

Take a dig meter that reads in DC MA. Put the red probe on your output center tap and the black probe on pin three of the second and then the third power tube of a quad or the left tube of a set of two. The reading for a quad of outputs should be around 60ma. per side, 30ma for a set of two.

DISCLAIMER---You can get killed doing this if you are standing in a puddle of water barefooted while holding an iron water pipe, SO be very careful and don't hold the probes on there for very long. Also make sure your amp is hooked up to the speakers and the vol. turned down.
There are fancier ways of doing this with O scopes and such but this is the best way with just a meter.
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Dennis Detweiler


From:
Solon, Iowa, US
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 3:41 pm    
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www.thetubestore.com
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Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 5:18 pm    
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Randy
Since I was a rep for Music Man from day one.

You do not need matching tubes or adjusting the bias..that has been designed for those tubes to not need to be matched or the bias
adjusted. Tom Walker Leo's partner designed those MM amps that way.

I am happy that you like your HD 150..I have two of them and in my opinion they are the best that I have played through.

I use 6L6 tubes. the 6550 were too hot and caused filamemt rattle and excessive heat.

Question,,look at the back of your amp where
the power tubes are located, is there a metal
plate shield behind the power tubes?? let me
know. This was an in field modification to reduce the heat from the tubes.

5881 Tubes will work. 6550's as well..but a good set (if there are any) 6L6's will be best. No Bias adjustment is necessary.

Thanks
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 6:46 pm    
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I went nuts for a while trying out all sorts of different tubes in different combinations. I ended up with Svetlana being my favorite in the world of affordable tubes. I like KT88's for power.

The Tubestore was always good to me. They take returns no problem when the tube was bad.

This guy looks good if you are into the NOS thing:
http://www.tubemonger.com/

I have had good dealings with this guy:
http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve

Bob

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Jack Francis

 

From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
Post  Posted 19 Oct 2003 8:23 pm    
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Jon..I told you that "I don't know anything"

"Too err is human", said the rooster as he got off of the duck!

[This message was edited by Jack Francis on 19 October 2003 at 09:25 PM.]

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Randy Beavers


From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
Post  Posted 20 Oct 2003 4:29 am    
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Thanks, Jody. That will make it easier. This amp does have the heat shield. Have you tried any different speakers. The EVM that was in it originally was the best speaker I've ever had. Plenty of range from high to low, and what a workhorse. It seemed like nothing I did could hurt it. I'm trying the Delta-Lite to save on weight, but I may have to locate another EVM.
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