Recording Direct

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

I recorded a song Saturday and the engineer had me go direct. I mean I played through no amp only my Boss DD3. The DD3 has never sounded the way I wanted it and maybe that was why I was not happy with the sound. Do any of you guys go direct without playing through an amp? Please advise me what is the best way you have found to record in the studio. I get a lot different feel than live playing and it sure sounds different. Any advice would be helpful...Paul King

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Hi Paul, I was going to post this same question. I'm in the process of recording an instrumental CD and would like to conduct a poll. How many go direct and how many prefer mic'ing the amp. This question has been talked about before on the forum. Also, do most of you prefer leaving the delay for mixing? And how about reverb...while recording or during mixing?
I remember some of you prefer mic'ing to get the natural "air movement" from the speaker for more punch. Some prefering direct with a dry signal and adding all effects afterwards and leaving tone settings for the final mixing also. I'm leaning toward mic'ing and at least using my prefered delay setting.
How about the Big E?? and any other veteran recording instrumentalists? I assume Lloyd is mic'ing the Hot Rod Deluxe, but what about effects?
Thanks to all that reply
Dennis

Tom Diemer · From: Defiance, Ohio USA

Line 6 PODxt. Not real cheap, but worth every nickle imho.

It has built in amp, speaker box, mic and stomp box modeling, works nice for steel and 6 string. Can be used direct, as a front end to a power amp, or through a regular amp.
Very quiet also.

I never could get a sound with my RV-3 direct, but this POD is amazing. Works good with or without an amp..

I think there are a few others on here using them, probably much more experienced than I am, but I had no trouble making it sound pretty good with steel.

Oh, to answer the second question, I record dry, no verb or delay. The POD is rich enough sounding I can do that, and add it in the mix later for positioning.. Sometimes I use reverb on the monitors for me to listen to when recording.

(I must add, I am not a great player or real experienced.. just like recording, I didn't notice you were asking the veteran players mostly)

Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Diemer on 05 October 2003 at 06:44 PM.]

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

Tom, Thanks for your input. That is what makes this forum a great place to visit. I asked for input and you were kind enough to tell what you do during recording. By the way, I have played for several years but do not consider myself to be a top notch player although I wish I were...Paul King

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

Taking just the raw output of a steel or any electric instrument normally gets poor sounding results.

If you need to go direct and have a rack of gear, that would be the preferred way to do it as the "rack" provides eq and pre-ampflication and impedance matching which some consoles need to see before getting "that sound".

At the studio I worked in Nashville, years ago, we took just about every steel direct if we could to avoid crosstalk. In those days, the amps had a secondary output and we would tap there with a direct box.

There a couple of samples of direct steel on my website. Take a listen and let me know your thoughts.

Once you hit the site, go to links and sound bytes to get the files.

Regards,

Mark T.
http://home.comcast.net/~mtulbert

[This message was edited by mtulbert on 05 October 2003 at 08:15 PM.]

JB Arnold · From: Longmont,Co,USA (deceased)

direct dry-all effects after recording. Use a POD or my fave a boss gt-6 for amp simulation. Unless you're a real rpo with the volume pedal, you may go without that as well. Many engineers will take it away from you, given the chance.

JB

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Peter · Posted 5 Oct 2003 10:32 pm

Tom and JB,
Where do you put the volume pedal? In front of the Pod or after it?

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

This is all to familiar..

An Engineer who probably has little experience with Steel tone..advising you on how to record the Steel.

Awkard to say the least..

Did the engineer hire you ? Or were you hired by a producer or songwriter ?..or maybe you are paying the tab yourself..

If the Engineer did not hire you it would not be inappropriate to ask him( or her ) if you can compromise and work together on this. Obviously you should build him up for his experience and ask if you can offer a few suggestions for the Steel..There is nothing wrong with explaining that this is not a 335, a Tele or a Strat..and that the mids will kill the final tone if not handled correctly.

A whole lot of Dale Carnegie training and implemetation is required here..

Nothing wrong with asking how he has recorded Pedal Steels previously...

If he states ..not much..just ask if you can offer up some industry standard suggestions..based on what many of the Pro's are doing.

For me..I would ask him to give me a little strength on the lows, back way off on the mids and some gain on the highs. Add a little slap echo 80 or 90 ms and a tad of reverb in the monitors and for the most part you should be close.

It's always a touchy subject when someone who believes they are in the know..are not..

Although it's been many years since I have been in a situation like this but when I was I approached it like the engineer was a pro and I was as well..a meeting of the minds, not the mids .

You can also just state that you want to be sure that the client is very happy with your results and always comment on your Steel tone..which is part of the reason you were hired.

That being said..it would not be a bad idea to have a direct setup ready to roll for the next session. One that the Engineer could just plug into the board and press record with...

Many times Engineers will record an Instrument direct , I think, because they have no clue how to record it live...

I one time did an entire band session at a studio at an old jazz horn players house.He had this big studio, blah blah blah.. He was dictating everything..The B3 tone, The Bass tone, my Strat tone ..he was really a little creepy dictator.He wouldn't let me use any effects . At the time I was using a Twin set-up which sounded great and he made me record direct.

Well the deal we made was he would record 5 or 6 or our original tunes and we would pay him for the master mixdown at the end of the session based on the results. At the end of the session we walked..we all pretty much told him the tracks sounded like Sxxt..they didn't even sound like our band..I personally told him that he took what he was originally interested in ( he had heard us live ) and turned it into a totally different deal..We all pretty much told him that we thought he knew what he was doing in his Jazz/Trumpet based world but was to stubborn and clueless in the R+R arena..

If he didn't like overdriven Twins with Wah Wah pedals..he had no business recording R+R bands...

We had a good rehearsal that day and he got Zilch..he still has the tapes if he's not dead, but we did remind him that these were original copyrighted songs ( they weren't ) and he needed us to use them..but they were not good anyway..who cares..

sorry for the rant..
tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 October 2003 at 02:59 AM.]

Tom Diemer · From: Defiance, Ohio USA

Paul, thanks. Wanted to be sure I didn't misrepresent myself and put too much weight into my comments.. Appreciate your kind words.

Peter, my preference is putting the pedal before. I'll have to try the other way and let you know how it works.. You might have a good point to try..

JB, I've heard a lot of good things about that Boss unit too. I found most gadgets like this don't sound good recorded direct. I tried a few that were lousy.

I like that the POD has knobs just like an amp does. Nothing to tweaking the tone controls or volume, just like you would a real amp. And it behaves just like the amp you model when you use the knobs..

The mic modeling is slick. you can pick one of a few mic models, like SM57, pick on or off axis, then set the distance to the amp face. I can get the room noise, which is almost like a natural reverb in itself.

If you prefer recording with reverb, it has several types, including a couple types of spring reverbs that sound great.

Tony, I hear you. IMHO, there is a huge difference in recording dry, and recording direct. Direct just sounds bad to me, and no amount of tone controls in the mix can fix it.

I don't use verb or delay effects, because I get a richer tone on the finished project if I don't. It also helps me play better. I found the reverb was fooling my ears into bad intonation at times. Using no effects, if I miss a fret, it sounds awful, not hard to notice. lol

Tom

Susan Alcorn · From: Baltimore, MD, USA

I usually go direct am an able to get a tone that I like, however, I have my own preamps, etc, and know how to suggest a good reverb setting to the engineer if they want to control that aspect of it from the boad. When possible (and it usually is), I think it's nice to mike the amp AND go direct. I rarely bring my amp to a session.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Some efx should go before the volume pedal, and some should go after it.

You can do this by using 2 efx boxes, or one box that lets you put the volume pedal in its efx loop. In the ideal situation the box lets you change the sequence of the efx chain, including the volume pedal, at the touch of a button.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Alot of good info and reading here. Has anyone recorded through your amp using an EDL box?
One question for those running direct and dry... What are you gaining if you end up having to find your tone after the steel tracks are recorded? Seems simpler to get your tone before it's recorded and then tweek if needed during the mix?
Thanks guys...and gal
Dennis

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

~

[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 21 October 2003 at 07:16 AM.]

Rich Gibson · From: Pittsburgh Pa.

I've used the pod xt a couple times and it was pretty good.David Spires posted some nice settings a while back.However,I took a yamaha acoustic stomp home last week to use for recording nylon string acoustic and it really worked well.I noticed a patch called steel guitar and skeptically gave it a try-
I was very immpressed-with out any tweaking even-I thought it much better than the Pod.
Now bear in mind i'm far from a recording guru,and nothing beats a well miked amp,but if you get chance to try one I highly recommend it.

Peter Siegel · From: Belmont, CA, USA

In my experience your guitar has a lot to do with it. I had a SHO BUD Pro III that sounded good through an amp but I could never get a good direct sound out of it. My Dekley, on the other hand sounds great direct and I prefer to record it that way. I actually prefer to set up in the control room and play to the track via the monitors rather than on cans if I am overdubbing. More like playing live to me I guess. You still need to "advise" the engineer on how to EQ you, how much reverb etc. Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.
Keep experimenting, you'll find a good setup.
And don't forget to try different microphones if you use your amp.

[This message was edited by Peter Siegel on 07 October 2003 at 04:16 PM.]

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Personally I loathe recording direct, I find I end up taking forever to get that airy sound an amp with a mic in front of it produces. Easier for me to just set up an amp and worry about playing than dealing with the unispiring sound of the steel (or six string for that matter) coming through mic preamps alone.

I will say that using an old Sans Amp and the truly killer Neve-designed Amek 9098 I was able to dial in a sound that was almost indistinguishable from an amp. If I MUST record direct, this is the signal path I use. Otherwise it sounds so corny I can't stand it. I bring my amp to every session, and all but demand to use it. So far, as soon as the engineer and client hear it, there have been no complaints.

Gary Carriger · From: Victoria, Texas

There is part of a song that I recorded direct not too long ago....if you are interested, go to www.dennisgilley.com, and look for the new release "Cold Brown Bottle". Cut direct into the board using my Mullen - and dry. Not the best tone I've ever had, but acceptable I guess. However, as Dennis is a friend of mine (and it is his studio), I was there at mixing time also. In all my forays into studios, I only heard one cut with a tone I loved - and wouldn't you know it, the song was never released. Oh well....
Gary

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

It should be mentioned as well that many of the new Digital Workstations can produce incredible direct recording results. I would think nothing of bringing my workstation to a session, should I ever actually get one, and use the direct digital stereo out to the main board for the enginner to use. Basically use the Workstation as a pre-amp.

The Workstation that I am now starting to use is the Yamaha AW2816. The Stereo effects and 4 band parametric EQ path are totally awesome and you can dial in and save settings at will.

tp

David Doggett · Posted 16 Oct 2003 10:28 am

It makes a big difference what kind of session it is. If you are a hired gun for someone elses session, then you gotta let them run the show, maybe with some suggestions if they never recorded steel before. If it's your session, then you want to feed them the sound you want. That might mean mic'ing the amp sound you like, or going direct, but sitting in the control room and tweaking things to your preferences. My new POD XT has a pretty sweet sounding tube preamp model, and a nice Twin model. If you don't run it through an amp and mic it, there are all sorts of speaker cabinet and mic models, but it will take some experimentation to find what you like, whether you are sitting at the POD or in the control room.

Glenn Austin · From: Montreal, Canada

It's funny that nobody has mentioned any brands of direct box. This in itself can make a huge difference in how good the results are. I've tried a few like the Avalon which is like $700 bucks here, and a Bellari which sounded quite nice too, and much cheaper. If you are trying to go direct with a $29.99 Whirlwind passive DI box then forget it. The DI box that I use all the time is basically a 5532 chip for buffering the signal to drive the cable. It needs phantom power. From there I go into a Neve preamp, and then an LA3 limiter. The results are always good, a lot cleaner and clearer than you get with an amp, but sometimes you want that. The biggest problem I have with using a mic'ed amp is that in order to get a big fat sound you need to have the amp really loud. If you have a room full of players then that can be a big problem. But I think the amp gives a better steel sound.

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