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Topic: doo-wah" tone control |
Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2001 2:57 pm |
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b0b's Marlen that he's auctioning has the "doo-wah" tone control. I am curious about the value of the tone control pot and capacitor. After all the doo-wah talk in the past, either I missed it or no one could/would say what the values should be. I believe I've heard that a 1 meg audio taper pot was used but I'm not sure, and I have no idea what capacitor was used.
I have a tone control on my D-12 Dekley, want one on my U-12 Fessy, and would like the correct values to get "that" sound. The one on my Dekley changes the tone just fine, but it seems that the change is too slow and gradual to get the proper doo-wah effect.
Would someone who has one of these on their guitar please let me, and the world, know what these values are?
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Jim Smith jimsmith94@home.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-12 (soon to be U-13) 8&5 (so far)=-
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 14 Jan 2001 4:30 pm
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Jim, the actual sound you get depends on the pickup impedence.
However, I've had success with a .05 mfd capacitor and a 500k audio taper pot.
In general, 250k,500k, and 1 meg will work.
You can also use a cap between .02 and .1 mfd. Usually a .1 cap will pretty well kill the sound when it is full on, so .02 and .05 are generally the main choices.
Your Dekley may have a linear taper pot which will give you a slower change.
Blake
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2001 6:01 pm
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| Thanks for the info Blake. I was the plant manager at Dekley, but it's been so long ago now that I don't remember what we used in the guitars. I will definitely try out your suggestions. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 4:46 am
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Hi Jim; it is a 1 meg pot that's in the Speedy West Custom(Marlen); I'm not sure of the capacitor though, mainly because that won't make the diff. as much as what Blake said above.
I only use 1 meg pots for my tone controls in all my guitars that use them and my Bigbsy vol/tone pedals.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 6:20 am
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Gee Whiz, Ricky,
The capacitor IS the tone control.
It shunts the high frequencies to ground and all the pot does is cut it in and out of the circuit.
Instead of the pot, you could use a switch with 2 or 3 different caps to change the tone. I have an old Kay lap steel that does that and there were other '40's steels wired the same way.
On most steel guitars, if you connect a .1 mfd or larger cap across the pickup it will pretty well kill the sound. The actual effect depends on the impedence of the pickup
because the cap forms a filter with it.
In this discussion, I'm talking about a tone control in which one end of the cap is connected to the hot lead of the pickup and the other end is to the high end of the pot with the center terminal of the pot connected to the ground side of the pick up.
There are other ways to wire tone controls but this is the most simple and the one generally used.
Blake
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 7:33 am
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To get a "doo-wah" or often called a "boo-wah" sound perfected by Jerry Byrd in the 40's and 50's, it is more a product of the pot than the cap. Oh sure the value of the cap is important, but I believe the author of this thread is trying to emulate the quickness of changing from full bass to full treble. In other words, the "doo-wah" sound.
And the factor that mostly determines this IS the taper of the pot more so than the value of the pot or even the cap for all practical purposes. In a linear pot, you have a gradual change over the entire movement of the control. An audio taper* pot permits MOST of the change to occur near the end of the pot. And this IS what you are looking for.
The value of the cap just determines how deep the bass is when you start the "doo-wah".
The size of the pot will determine how far you remove the cap's affect on the sound in the extreme treble position. Or at the end of the "Doo-wah".
God bless you with whatever you come up with,
carl
* please note: there are different audio tapers. But most of the ones that say "audio taper" will be ok in your application. The difference in them determines how fast they change near the end. Some change faster than others. Again, most any one you buy will be ok for you. |
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Waisznor
From:
Berlin, Germany
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 12:55 pm
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Do I missunderstand your post repleys?
I never used the tone control on my Emmons and so I removed all the parts (tone control pot, capacitor, tone defeat switch): Is that detrimental for the basic sound/output of the steel??
Horst |
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 2:12 pm
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Carl, your in depth answer is correct.
Thanks.
Horst: Does not hurt anything as long as you are happy with the sound.
Blake |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 2:13 pm
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Not at all Horst. Removing the pot, switch and cap then sends the entire PU signal to the ouput jack on the steel. NO detriment to the sound at all by what you did.
I once heard a man say speaking of the tone "bypass" switch on an Emmons, "Leave that in the off position. You get a lot more power!"
Unfortunately this is incorrect. NO loss of power when it is on and the tone control is in max treble position. The only thing that is lost is a small amount of the highest of the highs. Very easily overcome by a slight adjustment of the treble control on say a Peavey N400. So in either case, what you did, or leaving the switch in the on postition (pot at max treble), NO detriment to the sound at all that cannot be made up for by a slight adjustment to the treble control on your amp.
take care,
carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 January 2001 at 02:14 PM.] |
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Waisznor
From:
Berlin, Germany
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 3:16 pm
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Blake and Carl,
thanks for your answer!
Best Wishes
Horst |
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rmason
From:
Caracas, Venezuela
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 5:42 pm
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It's "boo-wah." I first heard the term "doo-wah" (which I believe has now evolved to "doo-wop" in the mid-fifties used by Washington, D.C. area DJ, the immortal Don Owens who was also a fair country singer and left-handed Martin picker who idolized and emulated Hank Snow. Doo-wah referred to the music of early black, they were all black at the time, R&B groups. If I really worked on it I could probably name the first record that contained the vocal riff "doo-wah." Some other geezer here on the forum could probably come with it. As I recall, the Jordanaires may have slipped in some doo-wahs behind Elvis in the early years on RCA.
p.s. It just struck me that Don Owens was probably referring to the creeping of doo-wahs into the so-called Country music of the time. Could it have been "A White Sport Coat and a Pink Carnation?" I could go pull out an album with that on it to confirm, but I hate it so much I'll let someone else do it.
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Rod Mason
[This message was edited by rmason on 15 January 2001 at 05:47 PM.] |
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patrick donovan
From:
orange, texas, usa
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 5:59 pm
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500 K pot, .022 "Orange Drop" capacitor, should do the trick.
Pat
Donovan Electronics |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2001 7:24 pm
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| Pat, do you agree on the audio taper? |
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patrick donovan
From:
orange, texas, usa
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Posted 16 Jan 2001 7:55 pm
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Jim,
I use a linear taper in all my guitars, however many folks prefer the audio taper. Try both and see which your ears prefer, but get a quality pot (approx 4-5 dollars) not a "El Cheapo Deluxe" for .99 at the local Radio Shack.
Regards, Pat |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 16 Jan 2001 8:15 pm
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Boowah is it!. The first one to use it was really Alvino Rey, when Jerry Byrd and I were about 14 years old.
He used it to do the talking effect before later using the voice box.
I had a big tonc control on My Gibson Electra-Harp, like Alvino had and copied everything he did.
That tone control was just right in front of the strings, where it fit perfect for my little finger.
I loved it.I would like to have one on any guitar I played, if I could.
Maybe , someone could come up with a kit, or the builders might start putting them back on again.They were on all the Steels back in the 30's and 40's....ahh those good ole days...al |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2001 9:42 pm
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If the pot is a linear taper, you will NOT achieve the "boo-wah" sound. This is because the change will be too slow when the tone control is moved. The idea is to go from full bass too almost full treble within just a few degrees rotation of the pot. This cannot be done with a linear taper.
Also one does not want to have a switch like Speedy West used. His gave a pop-pop-pop-pop sound rather than the "Boo-wah" sound.
I am certain the sound the author is referring to is the sound JB got on Hank William's songs like "Moanin' the Blues" and "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" as well as JB's recording of "Steelin' The Blues" and "Wah Wah Blues".
carl |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Jan 2001 6:42 pm
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Carl is absolutely right, again! The tone control has to move with a short twist of the little finger while strumming the chord or slapping the bar down. You need a increase in volume for that.
On the Multi-Kords, they had that button that Carl mentioned and it DON'T work like the audio taper. He is right on that, too...al |
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