Chris Hillman- Father of Country Rock

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Chris Hillman. Father of Country Rock. Agree or disagree.

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

...disagree...

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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I just did a gig in NJ opening up for him. I would say he is at least an uncle !

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Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Steve. Why do you disagree? Could you please give me an alternative argument.

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

I think Chris is a good choice, given that had the consitution to persevere through good times and bad, and worked with many of (most of?) the best in establishing the genre.

Some might say Gram Parsons deserves the title, but I say that Gram wasn't around long enough to see it happen. Same with Clarence White, unfortunately.

Poor old David Crosby still probably isn't aware of what really happened back then.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Agree.

Others did their part, but Chris pulled it all together and took things to a level that is still relevant and very active.

With the Byrds he appeared to be the quiet, shy, petrified-looking bass player - but he is one of those musicians that somehow makes everyone around him better. Gram is seen as the visionary - but Chris was the quiet worker, the administrator, and the "guide" - the stamp he put on country and rock music changed both forever.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I thought it was Richie Furay, no?
Rusty Young?

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

There were a lot of roosters in that barnyard. I was around LA at the time and saw it all go down.

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Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

I tend to agree with Herb...I don't think you can hang that title on any one person.why do you think Chris Hillman IS the Father of Country Rock?

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Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I heard or read somewhere that Stephen Stills thinks he and Niel Young invented country rock with the Buffulo Springfield.

Someone asked me the other day if I thought Gram Parsons would be as famous as he is today if he had lived. What do you think?

Dave

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

I tend to agree with you Dave Z. "Go and Say Goodbye" was recorded in 1966...pretty country sounding.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I think I'd have to go back 56+ years to "Lucky Wray and the Palomino Ranch Hands" and say.

Link Wray.

Not much question there..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 13 August 2006 at 03:19 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Steve, like Bryan I think that Hillman weathered the test of time. I think the first Burritto Brothers album is the legitimate first country rock album. I don't think that Parsons would have happened to the extent that he did without Hillman's pragmatism. I may be wrong which is why I'd like to hear opposing opinions, especially from guys like Herb who were smack in the middle of it. I have tremendous respect for Hillman. Jim I agree with your statement.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 August 2006 at 03:36 PM.]

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[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 August 2006 at 03:38 PM.]

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

Just curious,Kevin...have you ever heard of the International Submarine Band?Their"Safe at Home" album predates even the Byrds'"Sweetheart of the Rodeo"album...and features Gram Parsons and "good ole J.D."on steel!I am a big fan of the Burritos,Byrds,etc...but I'm not sure that"Gilded Palace of Sin"is the first"legitimate" country-rock album...or what makes it any more"legitimate" than any of the others...good topic...(edited for punctuation)

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 13 August 2006 at 03:51 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Steve, I have heard of that album, but never heard it. If anyone has a copy of it that they could burn me I'd like to hear it. You may be right as to my statement about the legitimacy of the first Burritto's album. I think that "Sweetheart" was an attempt at pure country music by rock guys where as "Gilded" was a project at country rock music. I consider Hillman both a real country, and a real rock musician given his background up to that point in time.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 August 2006 at 04:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 August 2006 at 04:23 PM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Hillman is one of the survivors, fer sure.

I'd say the first true "country rock" performers that I recall seeing were Michael Martin Murphey and (Forumite) Boomer Castleman in a band called "The Texas Two." They had John McEuen playing banjo and John London on bass. This was 1966. Of course they became some of my closest friends and musical partners.

Later they became a folk-rock band called the "Lewis and Clark Expedition," around 1968. In fact, I nabbed John London on bass from them for Ronstadt's band and it pissed off Murphey for awhile.

But the late 60's country rock scene in LA was a melting pot where the rockers met the songwriters who met the folksingers and bluegrassers, and all of them started picking with each other, using a few players from the country bar band scene (who, IMHO, were the "authentic" country players.)

The rockers that I recall were the guys from the Springfield crowd (Stills, Young, Furay) and their imports like Randy Meisner, and Tim Schmidt. Also Shiloh, the band from TX that had Don Henley, Jim Ed Norman, the Bowden Cousins (Richard and Michael), and Al Perkins.

The folksingers were the pre-Byrds-types: Jim McGuinn, David Crosby, the very under-mentioned Gene Clark, and more. Michael Nesmith from San Antonio. And Linda Rondstadt from AZ. And Mac Davis from Lubbock. Also the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band from Long Beach CA (which originally was a jug band), one of the founding members being Jackson Browne. Also Glen Frey and John David Souther who immigrated from Detroit and Amarillo respectively.

The bluegrassers had in their numbers Bernie Leadon from Florida, John McEuen, Doug and Rodney Dillard from MO, Clarence White, Herb Pedersen, Bob Warford, Dennis Morris, yours truly, etc. and Vern Gosdin.

Yes, THAT Vern Gosdin. I used to see him pick all the time in bluegrass bands with his late brother Rex on bass, Chris H. on mando, and Don Parmley on banjo. They were called the Blue Diamond Boys. The recordings they made were later dubbed the "Hillmen" after Chris became a rock star with the Byrds.

These guys all got together with the bar band pickers like Gib Guilbeau, Sneaky, Red Rhodes, Jerry Cole, Jay Dee Maness, Earl Ball, Delaney Bramlett, Wayne Moore, and others. Buddy Emmons was living in LA at the time and did a lot of work as well, though he mainly played bass for Roger Miller at the time.

Yes, then there was the Int'l. Submarine Band. Gram, John Nuese, John Corneal, and Bob ? whose name I forgot. Red and Gram told me to audition for them and I did, but didn't make the cut. I really couldn't pick much then anyway, it was right after Ronstadt.

Who played with whom is really such a complicated family tree, only Jason Odd can do enough research to put it all together. I hope Jason does eventually chime in with his input since my memory dims with the years.

I met Rusty Young when I was first learning steel and playing with Linda Ronstadt in 1968. I was a bluegrasser that Linda had hired to play dobro and mando. She pushed me into steel and with the help of Red R. and Nesmith (whom I became friends with through picking 'grass with Murphey and Boomer) I went the steel route.

Complicated? You bet! My head is already aching. But it was a very exciting time to be young, not concerned about Viet Nam, and totally into musical creativity.

I moved to Texas with Murphey in 1972 and got involved in the Progressive Texas Country thing, which was a parallel movement that post-dated the California scene by about 5 years.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 August 2006 at 04:47 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Go back and liston to Wanda Jackson And Wynn Stewart records. They had raw Bakersfield telecasters with attitude on their recordings that sounded right home in a rock setting to me.

Stephen Gregory · Posted 13 Aug 2006 3:57 pm

If you saw Buck Owens live in the late 60's you might be inclined to bestow the honor on him. The Don Rich, Brumley/Maness,Holly, Cantu, lineup was loud, tight and in your face with a solid "rock" style presentation of great country music. We just hadn't hung a label on it yet.

[This message was edited by Stephen Gregory on 13 August 2006 at 04:58 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm sure probably no one here would agree with me, but I'd probably have to split honors of the "First Country Rock Group" mantle between the Everly Brothers, and Buddy Holly. When I listen to some of their early songs, I can hear the essence of what followed in most all of the mid-to-late '60s country-rock groups.

Yeah, yeah, I know, neither carried a steel guitar.

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

I've always felt that the Flying Burrito Bros. and Poco were the Lennon and Mccartney of Country rock.
If I have one claim to fame, it's that I saw each band play their very first gig.
They were both at the Monday Night Hootenanny at the Troubador in about '69, and they each came on about midnight.
And so the question is, which came first? The answer is Poco, who that time was called Pogo. They preceeded the Burrito bros. by a week or two.
As far as Hillman... It's a close call, but I'll give it to Richie Furay.
I think Poco's album also came out first. And it was far more popular than Burrito's first. (Although I've always favored the Burritos first album)
But don't feel bad for Hillman, as he gets my award for co-father of 'Folk Rock', along with McGuinn, and I don't think he can have two awards.

[This message was edited by Rich Weiss on 13 August 2006 at 06:23 PM.]

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Disagree. I suppose part of this depends on exactly how you define country rock, but the notion of "father" implies being the single, overriding influence.

So - although I don't really think there is a single "Father of Country Rock" - IMO, the mainstream album that really signaled the arrival of country rock is Bob Dylan's "John Wesley Harding" from 1967. Dylan also used a Nashville session band much earlier on Blonde on Blonde, and showed hints of what was to come, IMO. I don't think anybody would argue that Dylan was not a huge influence on this movement. To me, if anybody actually could claim to be a true progenitor of the style, it would be him, and I wouldn't argue that either.

The Beau Brummels also hinted at country rock in their earlier music, but 1968's "Bradley's Barn" codified it, then they disbanded, so are generally largely uncredited. To me, that record sounds more like current alt-country than the smooth LA thing that eventually got called country rock. But to me, the strong country influences are unmistakable.

Similarly, The Int'l Submarine Band was another early effort, although not recognized in the mainstream at the time.

Another important influence on this was Ian and Sylvia Tyson, which gradually morphed into their country rock band The Great Speckled Bird.

Of course, Chris Hillman was extremely influential - his earlier bluegrass band The Golden State Boys / Blue Diamond Boys with Don Parmley and the Gosdin Brothers was influential much like the Kentucky Colonels with Clarence and Roland White. He is a constant thread from there through the Byrds to the FBB to Desert Rose. But to me, I agree with Herb and Steve that this whole thing was a huge amalgamation of things going on more-or-less concurrently, and in somewhat different directions. LA was not the only place where important stuff was happening, IMO.

At the very least, this is nothing like Bill Monroe being "The Father of Bluegrass", which is pretty much uncontested. IMO.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Dave M.
I agree completely about Dylan's John Wesley Harding album. In fact, Linda bought me that album and told me to grok it. We also did "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight."

My first ever performance on steel guitar was that tune played with Linda on the Steve Allen Show, which was taped at a theatre on Vine St. between Sunset and H'wood Blvds. I had a camera shot on my solo and my hands were shaking so bad it looked like I had Parkinson's Disease!!

Re: the Golden State Boys / Blue Diamond Boys. They were really two separate bands though related. Parmley played banjo in both. The original GSBs were Herb Rice on mando (father of Tony, Larry and Wyatt), Tom Keuhl on guitar, Hal Poindexter on guitar, Skip Conover on dobro, and Rex Gosdin on bass.

Tony (guitar), Larry (mando), and Wyatt (bass) also had a "teenage" 'grass band called the Haphazards. Kind of a junior version of the GSBs. Larry actually wanted to be a steel player, but he was the oldest son and his dad wanted him to play mando, so he did.

Bobby Slone also played fiddle with the GSBs... his first 'grass gig since he was a country fiddler... before joining the Kentucky Colonels after Scotty Stoneman split back for Maryland. He later went on the JD Crowe and New South. Roland was my mando teacher at the time and he told me he had to instruct Bobby on how to play 'grass style.

When Herb Rice left, Chris left the Scottsville Squirrel Barkers in San Diego and came up to LA and played with the GSBs. The Squirrels had Larry Murray on dobro who later became a producer in LA, and Kenny Wertz on banjo, who later joined the Country Gazette.

The Blue Diamond Boys were formed with the reshuffling of the GSBs.

You are absolutely correct about the other bands you mentioned. Like I said, the memory grows dim with the years.

I did see Ian and Sylvia originally at the Ash Grove, when they were a duo and had Harvey Brooks on bass and Monte ? on guitar. A few years later they came back to the Troubadour and had Amos Garrett on guitar and Buddy Cage on steel in the Great Speckled Bird. Buddy had a green Emmons as I recall.

No one has mentioned the New Riders in this thread but they were the Berkeley/Marin version of what was going on in LA.

Rich
I was there for both of those gigs as well! Were you the guy that spilled the drink on my girlfriend?

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 August 2006 at 06:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 August 2006 at 06:47 PM.]

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Such great stories! Keep 'em coming! JP

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Herb,
You need to write a book on the West Coast Sound my friend. Having been there you need to jog your memory some more so we can learn it from the guy that got the T-Shirt!

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