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Topic: Help with Harmony |
Mark Ardito
From:
Chicago, IL, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 8:50 am |
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OK, my music theory has come a LONG way since I started playing pedal steel. I have now come across the problem of being confused on writing harmony lines. Can anyone recommend any good books out there or provide a few pointers to get me in the right direction.
I would like to play harmony lines with the guitar player or fiddle player, but I just can't seem to figure out how to do it. I try and stay "in the scale" as much as I can, but it never sounds right to my ear.
I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone...maybe I am just confused.
Anyway, if someone can help me out or recommend a good book that would be great.
Thanks!
Mark
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Walter Killam
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 9:50 am
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I Like Robert W Ottman's books:
Elementary Harmony
Advanced Harmony
Basic Ear Training Skills
Music for Sight Singing
These are College Level Curriculum Textbooks developed by Dr. Ottman while he taught at UNT, check your library first, they may be expensive if you want to buy one.
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Magnum SD10, Ultralinear Twin, who could ask for anything more!
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 11:41 am
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George Van Eps has a very good book series that is very useful for this.
Each note of each scale you play will have a harmonized triad that goes with it. For instance, a C major scale will have a major triad for the 1, 4, and 5 notes of the scale, a diminished triad for the 7th note of the scale and minor triads for everything else.
if you learn these triads in all their inversions, you will have a group of harmonized notes at your finger tips. George starts the exercises in his book by having you play all the major scales in triads, first inversion, then in second inversion. once you have this under your fingertips you can choose to only play the 3rds or 5ths of the triad or any combination.
Now if you are playing a melody you have a wide range of harmonized notes to play that will always sound right, as long as you know the scale you are playing.
Let's say the note is E and I'm playing a C major scale. I can play the following triads:
EGB
BEG
GBE
I can choose to play the G above the note being played, the G below the note being played, the B above the note being played or below the not being played. or notes GB or BG. knowing how the triads relate to each scale will give you immediate knowledge of the proper harmony note to play. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 1:32 pm
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| Knowing your chords are really the key to playing a stringed instrument. [This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 16 August 2006 at 02:34 PM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 2:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| Each note of each scale you play will have a harmonized triad that goes with it…Now if you are playing a melody you have a wide range of harmonized notes to play that will always sound right, as long as you know the scale you are playing. |
This is not really true, and I’m sure Bill knows it is an oversimplification. For example, the 2nd note of the C scale, D, can be the root of the II minor or II major chord. Furthermore, a D in a melody is probably more likely to be part of a G or V chord. And that V chord might best be rendered as a V7, or maybe a Vmaj7. So learning to play scales in harmony can give you some possibilities for harmony. But there is no substitute to knowing the unique harmony and chord progression of the song you are trying to harmonize.
I’m not sure there is any short cut to learning how to do this. Most people learn it by learning the sound, and how to play the chord progression of many, many songs, with lots of different and unique chord progressions. Eventually they can hear the chords and know what they are as they are played. You can also learn to anticipate what chord will likely be next, but you won’t always be right if you don’t know the song.
Traditional country is limited in teaching this skill, because so many country songs are simple 3 or 4 chord progressions in a major key. Jazz standards have much more varied progressions and a much wider range of chord types, and many of them are in minor keys. If you learn to play a lot of jazz standards, you will have learned a lot of different progressions. At some point, most new progressions you encounter will be similar to something you already know. I don’t really speak from experience, because I can’t do this very well myself. But it has been my observation that people who can play the harmonized melody of a lot of jazz standards are very good at anticipating and playing along with strange new progressions.
I’m not saying don’t do scales. I just think they wont get you all the way to where you want to be. Learning a bunch of jazz standards seems to be where the gold is.
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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 4:02 pm
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Actually David, I would say it is true and an oversimplification.
Remember, the poster wants to play harmony with a lead instrument. It doesn't matter if the underlying harmonic structure moves to a G7 chord when a D note is being played: F or A will still harmonize with the note. If you practice the underlying triads the scale you are playing, you will play a pleasing harmony. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Aug 2006 4:48 pm
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I'm not really a musician,  like a lot of you guys, so when I started I did it my own way!  I looked at the rhythm chord (yeah, you gotta know most all the chords), and then picked a note in that chord that the melody line wasn't using. That's the note I played...unless it didn't sound quite right (maybe the bass was playing that one). When that happened, then I'd go for another note!  Perfect harmony? Maybe not, but what I was playing always "fit".
But, the easiest way to learn harmony? Learn to sing a little! Then you won't even need a guitar to practice!!! I'm not a very good singer, but I've learned a lot about harmony from singing harmony with most every song I listen to. Eventually, you'll reach a point where you can play (instantly) the harmony note you hear in your mind. At that point, you've got it whipped!  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 August 2006 at 05:49 PM.] |
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Mark Ardito
From:
Chicago, IL, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2006 5:10 am
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Donny - I can't sing. My voice is awful and I can never sing a pitch. I can hear the pitch just fine. In fact, I have no problem listening to a song and telling you all the chord progressions after the song is over. Just can't sing...
Like I said before, my theory has come a long way since I started playing pedal steel. I was a rock'n'roll guitar player that made the switch. I have studied chord structure for a while now. I know that stuff inside and out. I just have a hard time composing a harmony line to the lead player (fiddle or guitar).
I searched online and found that my local library does carry Robert Ottman's "Elemental Harmony" book. I will walk over there this weekend and check the book out.
I understand what you are saying Bill, and I am going to explore that "thinking" about the triad's. Thanks for the very detailed approach. I know my triad's very well so this makes a lot of sense to me.
Thanks,
Mark[This message was edited by Mark Ardito on 17 August 2006 at 06:43 AM.] |
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Leon Grizzard
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2006 7:17 am
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Here is a general formulation: Play in parallel, meaning follow the melodic contour, a third above the melody line. (Or sixth below - same letter note.)
At the beginnings and ends of phrases, and on held notes, the harmony note needs to be a note of the chord of the moment, and you may have to play a fourth above rather than a third above. (This will occur when the melody note is the 5th of the chord, such as D in a G chord, GBD).
Play no more than a couple of notes in parallel fourths before adjusting back to thirds. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2006 10:42 am
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In my humble opinion having learned fiddle and piano at a very young age years before i took up steel i think one has to hear harmony in their mind.Having played twin fiddles and /or harmonny on the steel i think one just hears it.Of course one has to know their instrument.Of course it can be written for the ones who read but never knew a coumtry band that played by written music.
I better stop now as i am even getting my self confused. |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Aug 2006 8:44 pm
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Not trying to be funny (well not too funny) though it reiterates many of the above posts:
Usually a diatonic third, unless it's a sixth. Those are considered the most consonant intervals, as long as they "agree" with the chord (especially on long melody notes). If not:
you may need a 4th. Maybe a 5th.
Those are your usual choices in terms of paint-by-numbers. If you stick to that plan, you'll probably get something that works- then you can adjust that to taste.
Learn to sing both parts of good two part harmony singing- Buck Owens and Don Rich; Beatles; Louvin Bros. That's much better than paint by numbers, because you'll learn to hear better. If you "can't sing" sing anyway. Try it until you can do it. It's pretty important to be able to hear what you play (especially on steel) and that kind of basic singing is really helpful. If in the end you REALLY can't sing, then learn to play just the melody, then just the harmony, then put them together.
Also, by studying the Classic Literature of E9 Pedal Steel, you will get a fine schooling in harmony, since most classic kickoffs and solos are single line melodies played with a harmony (see Emmons Teach Yourself E9th, Neil Flanz E9 course, etc. etc.)
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
[This message was edited by John McGann on 17 August 2006 at 09:48 PM.] |
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