Ever have trouble playing well with a band?

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I'll be 50 in a couple of weeks. I've played full or part-time since I was 12 and have done a large amount of studio work as well. In short, I ain't no spring chicken at this business.

Here's what has me stumped: I'm just finishing up a 2 year reunion series with my classic country band from 25 years ago. I have never had what I would consider a good performance with them in all the gigs we played--now or way back then. I mean, I just could not get in the groove on steel, Dobro, keys or guitar. My steel playing with these guys was an embarrassment imho. My piano playing was mediocre at best.

These are all top shelf players. The guitarist/fiddler was a 4.0 Berkeley grad. and an excellent player; the drummer has toured the globe for years as a jazz drummer and played with a number of name country stars for a number of years as well. The bassist is one of the best around. But I can't play with them and in all honesty, I have seldom ever heard any of them in their best performance mode with this band either.

When I play with my duo, my 3 piece jam band, my church worship team or any of a lot of session work I've been doing, I have been very satisfied with my work and it has been quite rewarding. But when I get back with these fellas--all good life-long friends I might add--I flat-out gag.

I play in other bands with the bassist and drummer and love their playing and I really connect with them. In the jam band, the drummer and I try from the beginning to the end of each show actually trying to throw each other and we can't do it because we have such a strong musical trust in each other. That drummer plays with me in the classic country band as well, but you would never believe it to hear us.

I've been rehearsing for a couple of NASCAR shows I'm doing with a band this weekend. Last night we rehearsed Long Black Train. My classic country band plays this song and, with them, I tried playing both dobro and steel on it, but decided to stay with dobro because I simply could not find one good lick to throw in on the steel. But, when we played it with the NASCAR band last night, my steel playing came alive in it. I found myself doing stuff I've never tried before and I was playing more tastefully on the steel than I've ever played with the classic country band. I was pleased with my work on the other steel songs as well, but since LBT was a song I play in both bands, my performance in it with the NASCAR band really got my attention and got me wondering why there was such a great gulf in my performance between the reunion band and my other gigs.

Additionally, my piano playing is easily 300% better than anything I've played with those guys (I'm only playing piano and steel with the NASCAR guys).

I don't get it. The NASCAR outfit is using my regular drummer--the same one I can't play with in the country band. He also is playing his tail off with these guys but is lackluster in the country band.

Has anybody ever experienced anything like this? Any clues? I've been able to solve about any problem that comes my way, but this anomaly in my playing abilities has me mystified.

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Hey Webb-- I'm a little uncomfortable with this suggestion, since I don't know the guy and you do, but if I'm trying to solve your puzzle based only on what you're saying here: maybe the biggest problem in your "problem" band is between the guitarist/fiddler and you. You don't seem as tight with him as with the other guys...the two of you are, instrumentally at least,fronting this band together(??) What's his Berkeley 4.0 got to do with this (seriously)?Musical (and personal) chemistry is a mysterious thing...
Well, I'm probably totally off base. Have you voiced any of these thoughts to your drummer? Wonder what he's thinking, since he sounds as uninspired as you with the classic country setup. --Steve

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Stephan, The guitar/fiddle player is a very good friend of mine and has been since we were kids. I've played in other bands with him although not recently. You may have a point although I can't imagine him being the problem. But he is the least improvisational player of the group, although aguably the most talented. Come to think of it, I did have trouble connecting with a recording project he asked me to be a part of a year ago. Hmmm...

I would never have considered him to be the source of the problem although it seems I have eliminated everyone else unconsciously.

The drummer and I discussed the situation yesterday and he feels exactly as I do and is equally as puzzled by it. The guit/fiddler's approach to music is much more regimented than ours and perhaps he is forcing us into his mold and stifling our creativity without he or us even realizing what is happening.

It's certainly is interesting and I am certain many of us have encountered similar situations, but maybe never stopped to ponder why some groups sync and others don't.

[This message was edited by Webb Kline on 19 July 2005 at 09:00 PM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Webb, do the other guys in the classic country band agree with your perceptions? If so, where do they think the problem might lie? Also, have you tried recording the group and listening to it closely for clues? Sometimes what we hear on stage, in the heat of the moment, bears little relationship to what is actually happening (for me, usually, just because part of my brain is focusing on playing, while part of it is trying to listen and judge which, by itself, can tend to spoil things)...

Oh, one other question: do you get to pick the songs for the other band, and decide the tempos, keys, grooves, etc., but have less input/control for the classic country band? If so, maybe you're more comfortable playing the tunes in the other band?

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 20 July 2005 at 04:30 AM.]

Tom Jordan · From: Wichita, KS

Webb,

I've had similar experiences in the past and it usually is around very close friends or family. These are the folks that are closest to us and we hate to disapoint or "fail" in front of them. It took me awhile to realize this but when I did, I think that I wasn't picking up the groove because I was to pre-occupied with the other thoughts/worries...it's intimidating.

I rarely choke or run out creative ideas with the usual working bands (plenty of "clams" though!).

I may be completly wrong...just my first thoughts after reading your post. Anyhoo, it sounds like you broke the barrier!

Tom Jordan

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Are you enjoying the MUSIC..? Or is it a drudge to go out and play ? Are you bored ?

Bringing back something from decades ago may not always be a good thing..

Although not quite the same situation, but similar overall..I returned to playing Steel over the past few years..clearly I was not happy with what it was I was playing which was basically the same stuff I had been playing 15 or 20 years ago which even back then I couldn't play.

Last Fall I changed my entire style and approach in an attempt to rise to the level of the band I am working with....and to add some NEW FUN to the mix for me personally...some different challenges...

I separate the modern era Steel players who did play back then into two catagories..

Pre Ricky Skaggs and Post Ricky Skaggs...
Or in more clear terms..
Pre HWY 40 Blues and Post HWY 40 Blues..

Todays bandstand players should be able to mix and match the era's , not just for the songs and the music but for the excitement of playing as well..the challenge...

There is nothing wrong with playing a full melody solo off of the AB pedals and strings 3+5 etc....and there REALLY is nothing wrong with adding a HWY 40 Blues type of phrasing in the mix to shake things up a bit...

I'm not saying this is the situation here..but I have run across many players who can play VERY well Pre Skaggs but are struggling in the Post Skaggs...

maybe you need to shake it up a bit..turn things over ..rattle the songs...step out of the box...let them know the Steel Player has arrived....

just my take...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 July 2005 at 02:49 AM.]

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I appreciate all the input, fellas. I think they all sense that there are imperfections on the sound, but they are more prone to blaming it on tempo problems, lack of rehearsal, etc.

The drummer is the only non-original member and he sometimes gets the finger pointed at him for playing too fast, although they guy is like a virtual metronome in every other project I've ever worked with him in.

The recordings sound okay. Speed is an issue sometimes, but not a lot. The lead singer plays rhythm and is a terrible guitarist--always was, but he's on the opposite end of the stage and I keep his guitar out of my monitor. Hmm...maybe it is still having an effect on the others though.

Most of the songs are old. Our fans wanted us to go retro and we have done very few new numbers. I do tire of many of them.

These guys are all rockers-turned country players. We started out playing PPL, NRPS, Poco, Eagles, MTB, CDB, and then got into reworking Hank Williams Sr., Ray Price, Merle, Waylon, Wille, Bob Wills etc, and a number of bluegrass tunes to fit our predominant rock styles. The country-rock tunes do come off better than the classic stuff.

Maybe that is a clue. They can't play classic country like it is supposed to be played and maybe I'm trying too hard to hang on my roots. Or maybe I am the one who can't find the groove on the old stuff.

But, the NASCAR project band are all rockers as well. We haven't tried any traditional country. Mostly Tim McGraw, Toby Keith, Chesney, Tritt genre material. I do tend to play steel better on the newer styles.

Tony, I never really thought about it but the Skaggs era was a trasnsitional time for me both as a steeler and pianist. My playing did change on both instruments, maybe on the other instruments as well.

I can sit down and play along with just about any country CD done since then and I feel like I could have walked into any of those sessions and aced many of those songs in a take or two without charts. But, I go to rehearsal and try playing the same stuff and I can't even remotely pull it off to my satisfaction.

Thanks for the tips. Maybe I'll crack this nut yet.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Have you played in the same band with a different guitar player ? Or played without him ? You have posted a couple things that throw up some big warning flags about him.

Bob

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I've never played in that band without him. I did play in a funk/rock band in the 70s that had a great groove.

I must say that we have all felt that he lost something when he came home from Berklee, however--more technical, but not as soulful.

Still a great player though. But, could his influence stifle the groove of our music that badly? It seems unlikely, although the more I think about it, the more I wonder...

I've played with horrible musicians where I could play much better than I can with those guys.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Bob, he graduated from Berklee in 1980, so I don't think he's likely to change now. But, I'm thinking that this may be the problem. I've never encountered it before.

Jazz Damage.

Gotta love it.

I know that when my son was contemplating going to Berklee he talked him out of it. Maybe he knows what happened to him.

He was one of the finest improv players around before he went to school. When he came back, I got him an audition at a big studio where I was doing a lot of work at, thinking he would be a shoe-in for the resident guitar guru and he failed miserably. He said he would have to take the material home and work on it, which of course is impossible. Completely the opposite of his approach before going to school.

Now I am going to have to organize a session using another guitarist just to see if this is the problem. Fortunately, the reunion is down to its last couple of shows, so we can just let it go. Nevertheless, the thing has me so puzzled that I am determined to solve the case.

It just doesn't seem possible that one musician could have such a negative impact on my own performance.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

I don't buy the "jazz damage" label (more echoes of "I read, but not enough to hurt my playing" reverse snobbery)- maybe because I both went to Berklee and now teach there- my view is if you have soul/balls/heart etc. then education (by itself) ain't gonna take it away, it will enhance it...unless you somehow lose said soul/balls/heart etc. in the process. If you do, blame yourself, don't blame the education!

Didn't seem to hurt guys like Coltrane or Joe Lovano, to keep growing...

I seriously doubt that learning more about music is to blame, if that person remains in touch with why the hell they stated playing in the first place...YMMV but that's my .02

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

John,
No offense intended. I constantly study and would not be able to express myself on the meager level I'm able to without the education. What I mean by jazz damage is the same thing that steel players get that know every Emmons, Green, whatever lick and then play them ! Some guys get stuck up in there heads someplace and never notice how important feel and expression are. There are piles of amazing musicians coming out of music schools these days. As a matter of fact if you want to make a living as a musician its about the only way to go now that the school of hard knocks is mostly gone.

You gotta admit though that in the 80's hundreds of lives were wasted and maybe thousands of non Berklee band members were annoyed by those frantic lydian slappin bass players and shredding guitar tappists Berklee was graduating

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 21 July 2005 at 02:24 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 21 July 2005 at 02:26 PM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Good point there, Mr. H!!!

I experienced dyed in the wool rockers who worshipped Pete Townshend proclaim after a few months "I'm a stone bopper now!"...replete with little goatee and beret...

Back on topic, my pet peeve is time-groove, from bass players and drummers especially...all the clever lines in the world don't add up to squat if they aren't played in the pocket. To me, that's what makes the great country and western swing bands so great- the FEEL!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Two or three things here...

I think it's possible that 3-4 years of buzzing scales could mess you up. I'm a minister, and I did 5 years of seminary after college. It took a couple of years before I could stop preaching to my professors and started aiming it at the people in the pew again. I see parallels.

Busy players bother me, no matter what the instrument is.

I hear some (mostly young) hot-shot players who want to play (as we say around here) "all the notes" just to prove that they can. I'm not impressed by a lot of notes. Sometimes it's the notes you DON'T play that are the best ones.

I haven't seen the band I couldn't play with, if the bassist and drummer were locked up and there was a groove. That's where it's at. Listen to the old Motown stuff with Jamerson on Bass, or the Memphis stuff with Duck Dunn... or even Ray Brown... nothing terribly complicated there (compared to Stanley Clarke, Jeff Berlin or Victor Wooten), but those guys understood groove. As a poet once said, "It don't mean a thing if if aint' got that swing (or bump and grind)."

"Swing" and "funk" are indefinable terms, but it's obvious when it ain't happenin'.

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 July 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

Rick, that got a chuckle out of me. I went on a 13 year hiatus from the ministry, drove truck over the road for 8 years and played full time the rest before going behind a pulpit again. It was the best thing I could have ever done in order to adequately serve a congregation. I had a lot to unlearn.

I must say though, that our bass player and drummer are as good a pocket players as I've played with, but you wouldn't know it in that band. It's just bizzare.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

"Sometimes it's the notes you DON'T play that are the best ones."--A wise minister, and a savvy musician

George McLellan · From: Duluth, MN USA

I think the toughest instrument to work with on steel is an accordian, WHEN it's an old timmer used to playing alone and a bar calls for 8 ~ 8th notes and he plays 50 (slight exageration on my part) out of time and VERY loud. It happened last night, he was sitting next to me. I could barely hear anyone else, after fifteen minutes I packed up and left.

I'm not a "better than thou" person, but that was the worst I've ever experianced.

Geo