One Helluva Steel String Acoustic Guitar (Cheap!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I just left the local Guitar Center Store with a great deal on an acoustic guitar. It's an Epiphone Master Series dreadnought. Man, this thing sounds great. While there I tested it side by side with some of the lower end Martins and Taylors ($1,200-$1,800 range) and it sounded as good as all of 'em and better than some. These only sell for $499.99 which includes a nice hardshell case. They knocked $50 more off and put in a set of strings and a setup. The guitar is made in China and is all solid wood. I'm surprised at the great work coming out of China these days. This is the 3rd Chinese made guitar I've bought in the last year. The first was an Ibanez Artcore Electric archtop and then the other was an Epiphone 335 style "Dot Studio". It has a pretty satin finish and nice inlays but the tone is the thing. I went in to look at a mandolin I'd heard they had on sale but this guitar caught my ear when I heard someone playing it. After he put it down I tried it out myself and since they only had one in stock I had to grab it before someone else did. Now I'll just have to find a way to break it to the wife but I'm sure she'll understand. My last four wives said "It's the guitars or me" and I still have my guitars....Have a good 'un, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 22 September 2004 at 10:31 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Brother Jerry, speaking of Chinese guitars, have you heard/played one of the BlueRidge flat-tops? Not quite in the same class as my old D-28, but a LOT of guitar for under 1000.00!
I guess if you ain't gotta worry about things like minimum wage, worker's comp, the environment(hey, I'm all for logging the rain-forest, if I get a decent guitar out of it!), then it's easy to build good, inexpensive guitars.
Has anybody ever thought about sending a Buddy Emmons record to Beijing?????

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

I have an Epi AJ-18S that I love and I feel it sounds comparable to a low-end Martin or Taylor. I spent many years looking for an acoustic, but kept walking away from the guitar store empty-handed after playing ~$500 guitars and comparing them to the nicer $1,000+ guitars. This is one guitar that had a comparable sound...I love it.

Epiphones are great guitars...glad to see you have found yours, Jerry!

Joe

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Joe,
I love this guitar for sure. I also have an Epiphone (Made in Japan) A-Style mandolin that I bought in California around 1983 which sounds great. It has more acoustic volume than my Gibson F-Style has and actually sounds better I think. It's just that the ol' Gibson is so dang purty. I really love the finish on the new Epi acoustic guitar and it has a vintage look to it. It also has Grover tuners which are the open style and look just like those high dollar Waverly keys....JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 23 September 2004 at 07:01 AM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

One word: CNC. OK, that's not really a word, it means computer numerical control, and by using it to set up production machines, any company anywhere can make consistent-quality instruments using a much less skilled labor force. The fret slots, pegheads, neck contours, all the areas that used to require skilled (read expensive) labor are done by machine. Of course, the quality of the wood you feed into the machines matters, and some companies also over-economize on pickups, wiring, tuners, fret finishing etc. too. I'm not sure how you could measure exactly how much of the savings originate because of CNC, and how much are a result of Asian labor; Godin, Warmoth and others are using this technology to turn out good quality, reasonably priced instruments and parts in North America too. I do think that the $200-$500 guitars of today beat the stuffing out of the same priced guitars of the 70's and 80's, and if you adjust for inflation there are more decent, affordable new guitars available now than ever before.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Jerry.

I also purchased the orange Ibanez artcore archtop guitar. I am able to do all my own repair work. The neck has already shifted on the instrument which I was just waiting for it to do. I pulled out the frets and corrected the "ski slop" by removing a bit of fingerboard at the riser block. I am going to redo the nut with a bit wider spacing and am looking for a cheap Bigsby to put on it. I am also going to re-locate the selector switch to the upper bout and set in some soundposts in it. The guitar cost me about $240. I bought it to use on gigs so I would not have to beat up my old Gibsons. I have already used it on gigs with great success.

What you trade off in these Chinese instruments is quality of materials. If they were made out of better grades of mahogany and maple they would be a steal at these prices. Right now they are just good prices for decent instruments. I personally do not see much longevity for these Chinese guitars. They just won't hold up made out of these sub-par materials. As as been the case with many Asian makers, the external appearance of the instruments is what sells them. They look very nice---but underneath they are mostly the same low quality instruments that used to look bad. THAT is the big difference in todays' Chinese instruments.

Let me know when a company comes out with a Chinese made guitar from dried quality hardwoods at these prices. I will buy more. I view them as cheap disposable beaters that play well and you don't have to worry about them getting stolen, damaged, etc.

I also purchased a $129 Chinese Strat at Guitar Center. The neck is VERY nice tight grained maple and the body is good alder. The electronics are sub par, but the instrument was good enough to take to a recording session and no one noticed any difference. You have to look through about 20 to find one nice one!! I wish that these Chinese instruments had been around when I started playing in the late 50s early 60s!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Bill,
If you can score a copy of it, in Guitar Player magazine around July of 2003 the reviewed the Ibanez Artcore with vibrato. It was the thinline blue single cutaway model which is exactly the one I bought. It was the Editor's Pick and received a rave review. I bought mine as I do some gigging with an Elvis impersonator and I was looking for something to do the Scotty Moore thing with. This Ibanez did it. I love this guitar and the vibrato tailpiece works every bit as good as any Bigsby. It also has a roller bridge which makes it play in tune good when using the whammy. Have a good 'un, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

David-- Taylor, Martin, and Larivee are just SOME of the big boys using CNC machines to insure uniformity of fit and size----but I don't see their guitars getting any cheaper!

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

So are you saying the music store that sold it to me that is an American company did not make any money?? How about the shipping company that picked the instrument up at the docks and delivered it to the store. That is also an American company. They didn't make any money? How about the American dock workers?? They don't get paid to unload Chinese cargo??

The world economy is such that many of the arguments against buying from oppresive countries is not as big a deal as it used to be. As long as the Chinese mind their own business, I am fine with them.

I don't buy French or German or from any other country that hung us out in Iraq these days. I think these countries are more offensive than the Chinese.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

We are experiencing our classic Forum "topic drift" here, oh well. The issue with China as I understand it is our trade deficit with them. Their share of our unpaid national debt is ever increasing, and the worry is that they could exert a consequent influence on our political and economic policies. Money does talk, sometimes in hidden and subtle ways. I have read that Saudi Arabia owns about 6% of the U.S. economy, and this is cause for concern that they exert undue influence.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

(mebe read it all before screaming at me in caps)

If some one in a locality makes something, it's fine for the locals.

But then, someone somewhere else, can always gripe it wasn't made and bought there.

Or made here and sold there.
Which is always deemed better than made there and sold here.

"I ain't gonna buy a guitar made in Massachusetts and help that liberal regime,
when I can buy one made in Tennessee!"

Now China may have an oppresive regime,
but the little guys who actually made the guitar, are not the oppresive regime.
I don't care at all for the leaders of China, but they are gradually, creepingly changing.

There are many people out side the USA that think the USA is an oppresive regime because of our import duties too. And us telling them by, brute force and cultural omnipresense, how to live.
It is really a matter of your perspective or vantage point on the big ball called
OUR world.

We do not live in a world that is the USA and outside it, our economy effects theirs and very much visa versa. If we don't buy things from them too, they can't buy ours.

There are large investments by the USA in many different countries, it is not just them investing here.
Though certainly excesive investment and hence control of our economy by outside forces isn't desireable.
Just as they think the same about us. Many other counties are freaked out about our manipulation of thier economies too.

Commerce is a two way street, and it has ALWAYS been in flux, sometimes one way sometimes another.
Same story before fast global communication, as after it's arrival.

So if we do buy something from other parts, we are not neccesarily hurting ourselves, but helping the global economy, of which the USA is an integral part.
Sure you can argue that a short term loss, to a forigner is hurting you now to one extent or another, but in the long run, like your childrens, grandchildrens time it will have long since balanced out.

The thing is economies, what is built and sold where,
have always been in flux, as populations, food supplies, technologies and education have changed. Often driven by climatic shifts or "Acts of God".

This isn't an arguement FOR globalisation,
but an acknowlegement that it existed BEFORE the word was coined, and that it is not going to change.
No amount of wishing will put the world back the way it was, it ALWAYS changes. That's life.
The word globilazation itself really pertains more to huge multi-national corporations, than to small guitar makers in Calf. or Xangdong province anyway.

So if our friend found a guitar he can actually affiord, and it is made in China :

He has helped some little people in China make a living, and their cost of living is less than ours.

Put money into the China ecconomy, that will ultimately raise the middle class, and put more presure on the one party system there to change bit by bit.

Put money into the global economy, to help keep it stable,
which in turn helps keep the USA economy stable.

Kept another american musician working in hard times doing country music.

Not to bad a list of positives.

No man is an island, not country's economy is an island in this day and age either.
How for example is a chartiy or church sending cash through missonaries to help people,
as opposed to buying their products much different?
Other than not getting to prostelyse for your particular creed in the bargan.

If Jerry got a guitar he really likes for $500, then he got a good guitar, if Martin can't make that guitar for less than $1,800, then they can't, but they wouldn't have SOLD it to Jerry anyway, so they have not really lost anything.

And the sound is what Jery liked, not the overall quality of the instrument. so ultimately he will still want a Martin down the line.

He may eventually trade this one and eventually get the Martin,
when he has made money with this one to pay for it. And that money is staying in the US economy, and moving, not stagnating, because of this guitars contribution.

When he trades it, it will be sold and bought in the USA economy.

Either way it does ultimately help the USA economy, and the importers, truckers and sales staff that got the guitar from China to Jerry's hands.

Lastly, and I hope this isn't a thread closer.. please.
You can't blame the French or German people as a people or a culture for being anti-war,
hence not wanting to join in a war.
They have both had MORE than their share, in living memory in thier own front yards...

Our President said we are starting a war for X reaons : you are with us or against us. Period end fo story.
Well that maybe so for him, but not for them.
They didn't elect him, or have any say, but now they are deemed bad for not joining in something they pasionatly dislike.

France is very much in the anti-terrorist business, and been there for decades, and quietly helps the USA behind the scenes.

In France the population of muslims is so large it would be essentially opening another front,
in their own living rooms to have joined in.
And this wouldn't have been, a "someday they will attack again thing",
but a instant series of small DEADLY attacks that mirror
what has ALREADY happened here since I have lived over in these parts.

Look what's happening over just the issue of headscarves, let alone an invasion.

I HAVE missed being bombed, at my Paris news stand, by 15 minutes. Just lucky.
So don't even think of telling ME this is BS.
My brother and sister in law also were victims of this 10 years earlier; no serious injuries fortunately.

The German people have been trying to live down a history of invading others ;
lastly the Nazis, invading most of europe.
Is it any wonder they don't want to invade anyone else anymore
for any reason.
Let alone for reasons they didin't and still don't believe are true.

So you can imagine the American people were "hung out to dry in Iraq",
but don't imagine the reasons were not perfectly valid,
and not just politically contrived.
Nor are they the only ones, many you have left off, have since pulled out, only ever gave token support under preasure both political and financial,
and MANY have had nothing to do with it.
But the mnost vocal or at least the best targets seemed to be France and Germany, so they get hammered regularly.

If you want to argue that big business in France and Germany wanted to keep their share of the pie,
so they manipulated the politicians, I have one word : Haliburton.

Who wants to be presured and villified to do something you think is wrong,
wrong-headed and countrer to your basic survival instinct.

So it was a good guitar, and helped out some small little Chinese guitar maker,
and some american guitar maker didn't get a sale because another american
couldn't afford it. That's life.
At least he has a good guitar and is able to play out with it. From a pickers point of view that comes first.

To make this cause to hammer other cultures is spurious, inelegant,
useless and mean hearted for parochial reasons, IMHO.

We live in our house, on our street, in our town,
in the county, parish or department, in our state,
in our country on our continent,
but ULTIMATELY on OUR WORLD.

One helluva topic drift too.
But back around to this guitar again...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 September 2004 at 05:46 AM.]

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 September 2004 at 05:59 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

James, I'm SHOCKED!!! You stole the words right out of my mouth!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Sort of one of my points, but more succinct.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

A concerned American citizen.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The same.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I thought the Big Baby Taylor sounded really good (in the back room at GC - $350 w/gigbag).
I tried the $99 Epi, and it was seriously lacking in tone (no bottom end at all), but there were a few families there on Sat afternoon trying and buying for their kids.
I didn't see the Epi you are talking about at this location.
I am also concidering a Yamaha CSF35.
I am looking for a smaller guitar for my living room that I won't mind if our child drags it around a bit, but can also be brought to a gig.
I have a '96 Taylor 710 that I prefer to keep out of reach of our tiny dancer!

BTW... What is "Nato"?... as in "Nato Back and Sides".

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 27 September 2004 at 08:18 AM.]

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

YOU CAN KEEP THE SAAP BOX AND MEGAPHONE!!! TOO MESSY!!! JENNINGS AN ORIGINAL HILL WILLIAM.............

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I ve got 2 Carvins(USA),a Gibson(USA),a Yamaha(Japan),a Squire bass(China),a Larrive(Canada),a Nashville Tele(Mexico),a GFI(USA),and amps by PV, Fender and Carvin, all at different prices, all for different purposes. My 2 accoustics were relatively inexpensive, the Larrivee(best guitar I,ve ever owned!) was only $725 with case, and sounded as good or better than the 2500 Martins and Taylors . My little Yamaha APX is small, lightweight and has electronics, and cost around $400 new, but sounds way better thru a PA than without, but that's why I bought it. Everything I bought had reasons,eco and/or ergonomic. JimP

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

THANKS David; Saved me from writing a longer missive.

Aloha,
Dt~

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

DELETED

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jennings, this started from here, not from me

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

REMOVED

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

And you forgot gig food here...
Sometimes fair by french standards, but generaly fine to stellar by most other places.

A good meal is included in most any gig you play from a bar to a festival. Sometimes the little cafe gigs feed you better.

Pros are pros where ever you go.
Some people take pride in their work others just gripe.

Certainly some instruments are totally indigenous to a country or region, and so might have ONE transplanted maker in the USA...
IF you know who he was you would go to him.
So you buy where it's made.

But I suspect those that would make that an issue have an equaly minimal interest in the MUSIC of another land, not just it's indiginous products.

I see no reason not to mix Duane Eddy guitar, with a frenchTrad diatonic accordian, an african djimbe drum, a dijerido from Australia and a Promat Push Pull from Croatia.

If the parts from all over make and interesting music together, why not use them.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Recent Acoustic Purchase: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/004411.html

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Flooding!!! Just imagine one freighter filled with Iraqi dates..
ruining the US economy... NOT!

Just saw there will be a a 5,000€ retail Renault micro car made in Iran starting next year.

I would rather they made small cars....
than trouble.

I'd buy an Iraqui ud, if it kept one ud maker off the streets
for the next 6 months..

An ud is like a fretless lute or a big body fretless mandolo, and they sound pretty neat. Don't think anybody in Oskosh is making them these days though.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 07 October 2004 at 08:16 AM.]

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