Age Discrimination

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Last night, David Donald and myself attended a show given by a well known musician out of Nashville here in France
Later on as we were talking w: him, he told us that he has a hard time getting gigs in the US because he is considered to be too old
he said it's easier to get gigs in Europe since he does'nt encounter any discrimination on account of his age.
This Fellow is NOT walkin' w: a cane, does'nt look like an old timer, and still plays his a$$ off.
any comments ?

David Doggett · Posted 16 Oct 2003 9:54 am

Bands are like marriages, most people want people like themselves, including age-wise. Bands tend to be younger, because older guys get tired of the low pay, road trips, etc. - also older guys tend to have families and day jobs that don't work well with traveling bands. Also, the fans who spend big on pop are younger and prefer young pretty players. This all puts older guys into niche groups that play older music for older audiences. This niche is smaller. Basically, unless you have something extra special, you tend to play with and for people your own age.

I play in one older group (singer-songwriter originals and old jazz/rock/country standards), and one young group (neorockbilly and alt country with punk flavorings). It helps that I look 20 years younger than I am, and work out to keep it that way. Both groups are thrilled to have a steeler, and don't seem to realize how bad I am, although it frustrates the hell out of me.

Forgot to mention, I'm 57 going on 27, and don't let my artificial hip slow me down any - but I don't try to keep up with the young ones on the cerveza and other stuff.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 October 2003 at 11:17 AM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I can relate! AND WHO, is responsible for this? Among that bunch of youngins that are so deeply into environmental issues, Volvos, Birkenstock sandals, diversity in society, same sex marriages and recreational drugs,loud-LOUD music, electronic gadgets, etc. etc....l've found to be really, really prejudiced against we older kind.....must be the authority angle? eh?

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Oh, geez, Ray. Must everything be part of a giant liberal conspiracy theory? I sure hope you're kidding...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

This is not a case of young band members wanting other youngsters, many of the players are young enough.

It is a case of booking people saying,
we can't book you, but not saying directly, because you're too old for the market.
Without really knowing the act is hot.

Not caring because the front man is above a certain age.
Even if he is a stone cold, world clas pro, and nice guy too.

In this case a virtuoso of the highest order and a living legend, who works in europe cause the USA don't support someone of this age group no mo.

In jazz they respect the elderstatesmen, and steelers themselves do... of neccesity.
But not country music as an ideum.

So maybe as I am pushing towards 50 I am better off over here.

Is this the same glass ceiling BE and LG are pushing back against? And more power to'm too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 October 2003 at 01:10 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

My understanding is that many of yester-years popular country, roots/rock-a-billy, rock & roll, blues, (etc.) musicians from the U.S. have found European tours to be a means of career longevity, often offering big shows with great audiences and an oppurtunity to sell merchendise.

There are alot of "old" country musicians that still tour in the U.S., ie. Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, George Jones, etc...

Who are you reffering to?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

mega dittos ray.

carl

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I'm near twice as old as some of the musicians I work with. It doesn't seem to be a big deal. I never think about it unless some guy in his early 20's says "You are pretty cool for an old guy". I love to play and I'm having fun. This is my experience in NYC. The pop country scene might be different.

I hope I don't slowly decend into an angry delusional bitterness as time goes by.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 16 October 2003 at 03:33 PM.]

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Bob H, awhile back I subbed for Smokey Fennell at a local cowboy bar with a band made up of pretty young guys. The lead singer jokingly said something to the effect of "that's ok, steel players are always old...."! They turned out to be good players and we had a fun Saturday Night with a big rowdy crowd. Good players, but boy o boy were they loud!

In terms of loudness, I gotta say though, that in my experience the louder the music, the less likely it is that there will be a lot of people wearing Birkenstocks! Or driving Volvos for that matter......

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Ray is still with us! http://www.angelfire.com/pa/raypricefanclub/tourdates.html

"It is a case of booking people saying,
we can't book you, but not saying directly, because you're too old for the market."

Was this statement made by the artist you guys went to see?

I really think it's about an Artist having a fan base.
I can't imagine that a Booking Agent would say... "You have a fan base who is willing to support your tour, so uh, the money is there... but, we feel you're too old, soooo...

FWIW, we opened for Merle last time he was here. He sold 1000 tickets at $35.00 a pop (a sell-out at the Crystal Ballroom).

I'm curious who you guys went to see?

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

Sorry, no dittos here. No liberal conspiracy that I can see, just some cold, hard facts. Nothing has really changed except we have all gotten older. The entertainment industry - TV, radio, music, motion pictures, magazines, etc., all cater to the younger crowd. It's just a fact. (They always have. Every 10 - 15 years there is a new deal: Rudy Vallee, Benny Goodman, Frank Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, Springsteen, etc. All these artists targeted younger, "hipper" audiences.)

Willie and Merle? Sure they travel and tour, but they only get support from their grass roots fans. Nashville tosses them a bone every so often, but don't kid yourself, they get NO support from corporate controlled "country" radio. That's why when Merle comes to Portland, he has to play at the Crystal Ballroom instead of the Rose garden...sad but true. People like us who really love music can sit at the feet of "masters" and marvel, no matter how old they are. Too bad we are in the wrong demographic!

It's also true that none of us playing in bands around Portland [insert Anytown, USA] are ever going to be the next biggest whatever, so I guess we just have to figure on just having fun and hopefully we'll make enough money along the way to offset the aggravation of hauling our gear from one joint to the next. Eric West - help me out here.

Unfortunately though, the industry DOES cater to youth, which is why the air waves are filled with no-talents like Kenny Chesney, Rascal Flats, Britney, Cristina, etc. Someone once said if something doesn't make any sense, there's a buck in it.

Just my two cents.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

About 10 or so years ago I was in a local band of wonderful players and I was the elder statesman of the group (at the time in my early 40's). Long story short- we won lots of awards, did some good recordings, etc. and were auditioned by some "Nashville signers" that raved about the music but told us that we were too old (looking at me and the keyboard player in particular). They told the singer that he might just fit in under the wire (he was tall, blonde, and good looking) even though he was about 30 at the time. The criteria seems to be "pretty butts", great vocals and instrumentals, and write your own material (that way they get a cut of everything). Fortunately I'm really just in it for fun or I'd have been grindin' my teeth off~~~

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I don't know...

Willie was recently featured on VH-1 with Sheryl Crow.

Merle headlined on the Opry, what... two weeks ago?...

I think the Topic of this post is, A person who was once famous, and is still a virtuistic player, now has to play in France, because his agent can't get him gigs in the U.S., because they say he is too old.

All I'm saying is... If you have a fan base that will support your desire to Tour, it doesn't matter how old you are.

Concerning the business that is Top 40 country... Good Luck!

Here's an example of a band that has a fan base that supports endless touring (hey!... that steel player has gray hair!!!) http://www.asleepatthewheel.com/
Tour dates:
http://www.asleepatthewheel.biz/cgi-bin/calendar/calendar.pl

Doc still packs 'em in: http://www.vh1.com/artists/az/watson_doc/tours.jhtml

Plenty of Birks at Vassers shows: http://www.vassarclements.com/tourdates.html

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 16 October 2003 at 09:41 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Mike. It's all I can do to haul MY stuff around at my age... (50)

I think the Johnny Cash last three albums are a great example of what "young people like". His last 9 Inch Nail video " I Hurt Myself Today" was a stong case in point. He was fat, old, and still "killed 'em". His Producer, a RAP producer told him to show up with nothing but his guitar to play the live "young people" venues. It WORKED!

I play with a young bass player Jason Beito, that came to country from a "head banger band" called "Houka Stew". He dresses nicely, plays the hell out of his bass, and the songs we do where I am playing home made stuff to his "rap" or "rasta" digressions tickle the hell out of him. I make no effort to hide it, sitting there in my stetson, slacks and suitcoat and shiny cowboy boots. He seems to think I'm "plenty hep" and I certainly like his energy and "young outlook".

Watching Pete B in the Rockalilly band was a similar treat for me. He had a rather staid demeanor, and a dentist type shirt playing KILLER "stringy sounding" Speedy West stuff, as well as "country" depending on the song. I bet he sells to people half his age, as well as people twice his age. (I know his graying sideburns don't keep him from being mobbed in his Countrypolitan gigs.) People from both groups were represented on the bandstand, from Mr Wilde the drummer to the monster guitar player who was not in his 30s yet. It seems that the "realness" is what shines through the most, and especially to "the young". They're REAL sharp.

I have known young people that were "sticks in the mud" at age 15, and old people that were "wired to fire" at 80 PLUS.

In other things maybe CB, but I don't think it can be claimed with "music" and especially Steel Guitar.

Possibly "Europe" is different, and we all know the "Django Effect" that's more operative there, but I don't think all the free weed and hot chicks I'd get at the Festival of Fools at the Melkweg or the Paradiso in Amsterdam would buy me a Eurail Pass like a weekend at the country bar in Portland would.

Some things are a "trade off".

Exuberance is something that is hard to hide, even when the body gets too old. Curmudgeonry can happen before acne breaks out.

I remember in High School some of us were riding motorcycles in figure 8s on the football field, and playing "car hood riding" games. Some of us were playing football, and some of us just didn't do anything that posed a "risk". Some of us were "80 years old" even then, and wondered why first graders didn't think they were "cool".

In my case, of the friends we all reminiscced about at my 30 year reunion of a "high end" high school (where I was the only one that showed up on a harley), fifteen of our "friends" had finally went home and blew their heads off. We don't miss them.

Just my 3¢ adjusted for inflation..

EJL

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Aw Geez....pardon me...I accidently clicked on the wrong thread...

Al Udeen · From: maple grove mn usa

[All I can do to haul my stuff at age 50?] I must be lucky or different or somthing? I'll be 74 in 2mos & I haul my stuff, [D-10, Amp, & Seat] I play most weekends, I will admit that I grunt a lot when I lift my stuff in & out of my trunk! au

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

20 yrs. ago,('83) I applied for a pickin' job w/ Jeanne ("1 hit wonder")Pruett. I spoke w/ her "bandleader" who,I believe, was her son. After going through the "customary" inquiries,("who did you work with","how long",etc.,etc.) he asked,"By the way,how old are you?" Thinking nothing of it,I,non-chalantly,said,"45". He,then,stated,"Oh sorry, but Jeanne's not hiring anyone over 30 anymore." Now,I know she's over a year older than me. (her d.o.b.-01/30/37. At least,that's what her resume says.) Why would she wanna surround herself w/ "kids"? They'd only make her look older! My reason of thinking is that,maybe,she could pay these poor "monkeys","peanuts",& make them think that they're making a "fortune".

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  mm   if it ain't got that twang.


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Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

After reading the range of comments in this thread I feel truly blessed and thankful to have worked as long as I have.

Two years ago I celebrated my 70th birthday on stage working the same 3-4 nights a week music show that I had worked for two seasons....with an ensemble of musicians, vocalists and dancers whose average age was middle 20's, none of whom ever made me feel "too old" to be a part of the show. No concessions to my age were made, I was expected to be prepared to carry my part of the show just like everyone else (including lugging a Session 500 and my other equipment on and off stage). Because of a family illness, I later chose to quit my job playing music with yet another theater show last year.

I don't know if I could get another music job now, or even if I wwould want one, but I still hear my dad's admonition...."Don't waste time worrying about what you may not be able to do tomorrow.......because most people lose their "want to" before they lose their "can do".

.........but I do still ride my Harley!

www.genejones.com

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

"This Fellow is NOT walkin' w: a cane, does'nt look like an old timer, and still plays his a$$ off."

Was it Roy? http://www.roy-clark.com/schedule.html

I've seen him twice in the last few years (w/ Bob Hempker on steel).

JB Arnold · From: Longmont,Co,USA (deceased)

It's simple-If you have a fan base, you'll tour. Look at the Dead! They're not spring chickens anymore, and they certainly are not top 40-but they sell out everything they touch in days, some venues in hours. They added Joan Osbourne for the summer tour, which worked out VERY well.

I doubt age has much to do with selling tickets-just how many you move. REAL country is a niche market, much like Jazz, and you need to get real about how to sell those shows. And yes, Country does much better in Europe than it does here, all things considered.

JB

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"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

This showman wasn't doing cartwheels on stage, but was moving about interacting with his players, clearly having a great time.

All the players played with good humor and a high level of musicianship.
Tunes and styles went from Charlie Danials country rock, irish ; Whiskey Before Breakfast,soul pop, pure country ballads, a bit of funky grooves, some classic french rock songs, bluegrass done right, and the western swing really SWUNG.

Many solos had very hip jazz and classical elements in them, a driving drummer.

A great steeler who doubled great banjo, A fiddler who doubled on tele.
And the front man who was as hot as anyone I have seen all summer except the mad Hungarian gypsy band, Taraf des Hadouks, and they are other worldly.
Why this man can't book this act anywhere in the USA is a mystery to me.

Oh and he has played with Elvis, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, and I think Merle Haggard and George Jones also, Eddie Mitchel and Johnny Halliday, etc...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 October 2003 at 02:10 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi David,
I guess my question to you is?...
Who are you talking about?
Respectfully,
Pete B.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 17 October 2003 at 10:27 AM.]

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Back in the mid-late 80's, I met Dave Dudley... by then with a pretty bad hearing and no place else to make a living than around Germany... that's where he lived. Dave was one of the pretty great ones in the States at a sertain time... the American way???

... J-D.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

No Pete, it was'nt Roy
David and i are holdin' back cause we don't want to cause this gentlemen no Grief.
Hey David , maybe we could offer a ShoBuddhist chant CD to the person who guesses who we're talkin'bout ?
He had a real good United European Band
in any case, this Gentlemen is not complaining about Musicians but Agents and Promoters
Thanx to all for your replies

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Steel what?

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I think Steel players are in a class by themselves because there are not alot of them around here. A good steel player is hard to find and adds so much to the final mix, that only a retard would care what their age is if the steel player can wail.

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