DRUMS and the demise of country music

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

For years, drums were prohibited from the Grand Ole Opry. SLowly, drums were allowed and now are deeply imbedded in c/w music.
Last week I went to listen to a very famous "LOCAL" steel guitarist, a somewhat liberal steel player, if you will.
The room has two dance floors down both sides........with seating in the middle, going rearward for about 100 feet, I'd guess.
Two people were at a table directly in front center of the bandstand. I, with two guests, was in the second row from the bandstand. The rest of the crowd was no closer than the middle of the hall and rearward.
The drummer was ELECTRIFIED and wore Buck Rogers earphones so he could hear "someone"?
The steel man had two high powered amps and yet it was impossible to hear him except for random shrill notes. It was impossible
to carry on any conversation at all. The DRUMS were excruciatingly LOUD!
WHO determined for everyone else that DRUMS were such a necessary ingrediant for c/w bands? I do believe this is the very reason why drums had been discouraged for so many years.
Now it's like......if you can hear anyone else in the band including vocalists, the drums aren't loud enough.???
Can anyone explain this to me?

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

Last weekend the Carol Baker show came to town with Al Brisco on steel. The show was excellent and the sound levels just right for the dominantly grey-haired crowd. The drummer was .. just right!

The opening act was a young local group with talent..I think. The drummer was too loud .. and that was it right there! Everything was a blur of sound! I mentioned that to Al after the show and his comment was "the drummer sets the 'tone' for the show. If he's too loud, it's over!"

Of course, AL is too professional to say he agreed with me about that particular drummer, but his comment was right on.

[This message was edited by Don Walters on 07 April 2003 at 08:52 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

FAMOUS??

Maybe just hard to avoid, now that the swamp is nearly drained. ( and my day jobs in the toilet....)

Well, If you'd have frisked me you'd have found a mag alloy .38 with +P safety slugs in my suit coat pocket to use if he'd have gotten any louder.( +Ps tend to crack the frames on those airweight S&Ws, so I tend not to use it at "every little annoyance".)

We already had a little "talk" with him about "subjective raga-esque rythym".

Our "regular drummer" Mike Masters, a Fine young skin swatter along with the "other" singer Aaron Judah found their way out of this cesspool with the Amy Clauson Band. I look for better things from both of them.

Aarons a FINE singer/songwriter. (I gave him the ceremonial "Uncle Eric" hug and pat on the ass and warned him about the dangers of booze, chemicals, and big city women. He'll do fine.)

Wages went down again recently, and we took what we could get. Believe me. Hey, it was either him or "Shuffle Buck"...

LIBERAL!? I have a Ronald Reagan in '68 pin on the pillow I sleep on. I thought LBJ was "Pussyfootin'" on Vietnam.(Curtis Lemay was the man we really needed.) I think Ghengis Kahn was a little too "socialistic", and that the religious righters belong in the Democrat Party along with the Libertarians.

Politics aside, I know my two 250 watt amps could have buried the whole shootin' match. Wouldn't even have heated up the heat sinks. Considering I had "guests" I figured I'd let them take your ears out. (You notice I didn't "take the bait" when you said you couldn't hear me. That way you don't really know if I played poorly.)

)

Better to just do the gig, take the money, and outlive the whole bunch. I've done that to over 30 bands there in that same truck stop. Just another notch on the old Pro III.

No, Ray, I don't think Drums Killed Country Music. It was Liberal Political Correctness.

If you want to hear some real volume, come hear me with the Jason Snell Band this weekend. They are an Excellent Band though possibly a bit louder then Monty's. I won't even have to be in the PA.

Did you ever hear Buck Owens live? Talk about "ear splitting"...

Besides, what are youse doing talking during one of MY performances?

Hmm....

Heading down there now with my business cards to see if there's another band I can destroy..

I can always seem to come up with more reasons to gig than not to. Mostly it's the money anymore. I do enjoy playing against Monty Moss. He's hot, to be sure, and pushes me to do those songs like Nervous Breakdown, and Hummingbird where the "moose lodge" bands never seem to.

Thanks for your patronage, as always. I pay the cover for weekend visitors IF they order fries right before the break.

Not responsible for Sonic Collateral Damage.

Tired Old Eric.

P.S.Some people want to save the world. I just want to pave it..

[This message was edited by Eric West on 08 April 2003 at 12:20 AM.]

Dave Van Allen · From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

Let's flip the coin here for a minute- Friday nite I played a quiet venue, basically a "folkie" room, concert in a church basement.

Our Drummer who never mics anything but maybe the kick, and who is one of the most dynamic and tasteful percussionists I have ever worked with has THEIR (the folkie venue)soundguy demand to put a mic on his hihat...

Then this same fellow (sound guy) comes up to me and the tele player who are holding a conversation in normal tones of voice while tuning up, and he tells us we are too loud. We hadn't even started playing yet.

best quote ever from a sound guy: "If you can hear yourself on stage, you are too loud out front."

go figure-it may not always be the drummer's fault.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I've played plenty of places where the "blue hairs" would scream if we played above acoustic level. We have one Eagles where we acually turn the amps at ourselves on the front of the stage, and they walk around with the DB meter, and fire bands that go over 80db. Hell, my wife has to talk at 80db before I can hear her..

I don't think that was what Ray was talking about though. The Drummer in question was slamming every cymbal (those "reverse ones too") and drum he had all the way thru EVERY song. When it turns the whole thing into a "wall of sound" I tend to object. I think it's called "dynamics".

I used to go see Segovia when he was alive (and I was studying classical guitar from a local cuban guy named Steve Antunez). Also Montoya. I though Carlos played too loud cause he played "with a mike"....

It's all subjective I guess.

I played at that certain truck stop when the stage was below a lowered place in the ceiling. You had to be so loud that it would make your ears bleed in order to get 10 feet out into the rest of the place. It was good training. I was soon to find out that there were a LOT of venues that you had to play against things you thought were "impossible". Either that or not play music in public. I made the choice conciously.

I just went out tonight and picked up a half dozen "outdoor" earspliters for the summer, some mid week work, recording and a possible spot with a band that plays "Purple Rain" as a shuffle.

Left by myself, I'll go seek out a quiet "piano bar" when I want to relax and enjoy myself. Sometimes I don't even turn on my car radio...

EJL

(Vigoroso/Violento)

"From the setting sun until the break of day.

There's old Shimmy Shakin' Tina..."

BTW I'm actually going to get that #2 Buck video. They just didn't put it together any better than that..

There was a certain point where I decided that that loud stuff would become my life. At 49 with only about 5-10% hearing loss, and most of that from chainsaws and cats, I reckon another 15 years won't hurt me none..

Eh?

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 07 April 2003 at 11:52 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I think Eric states it best above..

what he said...

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 April 2003 at 08:51 AM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Ray,
Thank you for your initial post in this thread, as it gave us all a chance to read Eric's replies, which are priceless. I'm still LMAO!

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

...Tony...Heck the little amp had two inputs, the other was for the mic..wasn't it ?...

..or for the guitar player who didn't own an amp, or else it was temporarily in the Pawn shop!

www.genejones.com

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

We have a drummer that sits in with us almost every weekend and we actually have to tell him to turn UP!! He's actually improved lately as he's playing with paying band. I never could imagine having to tell a drummer to turn up.

Eric Myers · Posted 8 Apr 2003 5:19 am

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Ray:

Slightly off topic, but you mentioned drums having been prohibited from the Grand Ole Opry, and it reminded me:

I was on the Opry the first time drums or any percussion instrument was allowed on the show. We had just recorded "Slowpoke" and it had risen rapidly on the charts. Harold "Sticks" McDonald (our drummer) had used Korean Temple Blocks to get the "tic toc" sound of a clock on the record. Pee Wee convinced Harry Stone that we just had to do the song because of its popularity, and that it wouldn't be what people wanted to hear if it didn't have the ticking clock in the background. They allowed the Temple Blocks to be used, but Sticks had to set up behind the curtain so the audience couldn't see him. That was the "ice breaker" and later Pee Wee talked them into letting Sticks set up behind the curtain and add a little light snare drum using brushes to our up-tempo songs. And the rest is history.

Dave Van Allen · From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

quote:
BTW I'm actually going to get that #2 Buck video. They just didn't put it together any better than that..

indeed not! Speaking of tasteful percussion- is Willie Cantu playin' anywhere regular ?

Tape #2 was the first of the 3 I got... and is still the one I choose to play first.

Wish they'd put those shows on DVD

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

I just saw him at the Nashville Palace with Mike Sweeney before they showed Mike the door (jerks, he was the best part of the band). He still sounds good to me.

[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 08 April 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Miking the drums? Yes, there seems to be a penchant these days to amplify what is arguably the loudest instrument on the bandstand. It doesn't have to be that way...just listen to an old Ray Price record. (That's how drums and bass are supposed to sound!) Today there's lead guitar, lead bass, and lead drums. The steel? Well, that's just there for "grace notes".

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

Sometimes miking the drums is necessary ( huge dance halls etc. ), BUT what most soundguys don't get is, that there are many different styles to play drums and many different styles of music, not just rock. You have to do the sound according to who's on stage and not always according to "how-to-mix-sound-to-loud-rock-handbook". We always have a hard time convincing them, that two overheads on drums are enough for us, and that the bass drum should not be the most audible instrument in the mix.
Speaking of drums on the Opry, Bear Family Bob Luman DVD booklet has some very cool pictures of Bob on Ryman stage in the 50's. Backing musicians include Chet Atkins, Ray Edenton, Lightning Chance and Buddy Harman playing just a snare. And guess what, they didn't mic Buddy's snare!!!

[This message was edited by Jussi Huhtakangas on 09 April 2003 at 01:12 AM.]

Adrian Wulff · From: Portland, OR, USA

Ray- I caught one of the shows that week at the truckstop and had the same reaction. It also outlined the difference to me between rock drumming and country-western drumming.
Somehow the whole song can be radically changed by the feel (and fills) that the drummer does.

The some of the best c/w drummers I've heard in Portland are in rockabilly bands.

Adrian

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. Donny, you spoke the words I have spoken for a number of years now. Where has professionalism gone?
And Tired Ole Earache........you say so much in such an interesting way. Spectacular!
There's a quiet, slightly built gentleman over in Vancouver, WA, (NOT SOME BIKER GIANT)
that is ALSO a drummer. From the first time I met him, I've been highly IMPRESSED by this man's great drumming. He uses a small set of drums, not the 15 barrell + 15 cymbal
type set-up. He typically uses brushes and the soft, yet strategic impact of his playing is a major contribution to the wonderfully fresh and bouncy sounds for any group in which he plays. He's a team player.
He knows WHEN to play, HOW to play, and has no need for miking his work. His use of cymbals adds SO MUCH in the way of "accent" that it is difficult for me to describe. A wonderful gentleman and surely one of the best drummers in this area, and seemingly, yet to be discovered. His name: Dennis Wall.
Dennis WHERE ARE YOU?
Aside from Dennis' major contributions to any group's musical effort, the only other drummer that has EVER TRULY EXCITED and IMPRESSED ME was the fellow RICKY SKAGGS used back in the early days of his initial rise to stardom. What a great drummer!!!
Lots of drums and cymbals YET so tastefully applied to ballads or swing. I sure miss hearing his work.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I went to hear Jim Lauderdale with Tommy Detamore on steel at the Viper Room. The sound man had the kick and the bass so loud, the rest of the band was practically drowned out. I can understand doing it that way for the inconsequential drivel that passes for music from a lot of the pop bands, and it does help the white people find the beat, but masking Jim and Tommy just plain proved how insensative the sound man was.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

GET ME HIS NUMBER!!!!

( Actually, I've played with Dennis. He's the only guy I've heard that ACTUALLY knows how to play a shuffle. Thanks for reminding me.)

The "scene" here is reminding me of downtown baghdad... There's actually bands playing FOR FREE in clubs that pay other bands, as if it all weren't bad enough...

Went out again to see Pete Burak and Lilly Wilde the other night. Their drummer is actually "Mr. Wilde". Played perfectly and actually used *Brushes*.

Aactually the BEST one in these here parts is and has been for 20 years Mr Dave Dixon. Played with him at Jubitz several times. He shows up with a heavy set of wood drums, probably a 7 piece kit, never had to be "in the PA", played "on time", and doesn't do a constant "daisy cutter".. I remember once asking him if any of my "accents" or "back beat comping" was distracting him. He said, "You know, I really haven't been paying that much attention."

Another FINE drummer is Kenny, that's been playing with Jon Koonce, Paul Hershman and Debbie. He played with Mary and the "Ozone Rangers" for a few years.

Drums can either make your night go quickly and painlessly or you can end up feeling like you've been "pummeled by an unseen foe". Sorrily,the latter is usually the case here anymore...

We'll see. There's all kinds of stuff happening here under the surface as we speak. We'll see. It could all change..

Off to set up my stuff.

EJL

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Re. soundmen, I like what Curly Chalker told me once: "You spend your whole life working on getting the right tone and then the soundman comes and ruins it in two seconds". I have to admit to some personal prejudice against soundmen. In the matter of drums, the band I'm currently playing in has a drummer, great guy, but a very loud drummer. He's been trying harder to hold it down, but unfortunately he's just one of those drummers who "can't" play quietly, well at least not for long. He's getting better at it. In the last band in Las Vegas I was in, our drummer could play great soft or loud. Too bad some can do it and some can't. Maybe I'm just getting old but loud drums and everyone having to be too loud just to get above them is getting to me.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 11 April 2003 at 12:24 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

We once had a drummer who was so loud, we had to put cushions in his bass drum, duct tape on the bottom of his cymbals, and we had to sneak back every break and reset the muffler on his snare. He was still too loud!

I guess it all started with "Caravan".

By the way, I have heard several early "big band" versions of that song, and guess what?

NO DRUM SOLO!

Eric Myers · Posted 11 Apr 2003 5:59 pm

Turning into a soundman bashing thread I see - well for every horror story some musician has about a sound man there is a sound man with his tales of Marshall Stacks that blow away anything a PA can do, BAD TONE from instruments, and bad playing that he is somehow supposed to miraculously cover up, and relatives/friends of the band who constantly hound him to TURN UP their boyfriend/friend. Its a thankless job.

David Reeves · From: Florida

The best band that I ever played in was just a bunch of GI's and we had a singer that could SING! We tried to let the music just be loud enough to compliment his voice. Of all the people to use for a sound man we used our drummer. He was blind, but had an 'ear'. He and only HE touched the sound controls and we just never had any problems. None of the guys had ego problems. We all got along.
Too bad that coulndn't have lasted forever.

------------------
Stump Reeves

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

David, I envy you, it sounds like pure bliss to me!!! Even in my band (where I'm the boss) I still have to fight with musicians who play too loud. I usually give up after the fifth or sixth warning and just don't hire them anymore, I've lost some good pickers that way. But life is just too short to put up with it. I'm resigned to the fact that there are too many loud players in other bands that I get hired to play in. I think my biggest pet peeve though is the drummer who insists on "noodling" constantly between songs, it smacks of unprofessionalism to me.

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