Cassettes vs. CDs

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

Why are so many of the older (and sometimes greatest) steel albums only available on cassette? An example would be the Chalker set that Tom Bradshaw has. Are CDs cost prohibitive? Personally, I prefer CDs and hesitate to buy cassettes. Just curious.
Dave

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Compared to just about any other market (even bluegrass or folk), steel guitar instrumentals are one of the smallest markets out there. If you duplicate 10,000 cassette copies of your album and sell half of them, you must be Buddy Emmons.

But what do you do with the other half when most of the buyers switch to CD's? You probably try to sell the cassettes you've already paid for. Re-releasing on CD will increase the expenses and probably not substantially increase the profit.

In addition, some of the original recordings may not be available, with studio closings and other people owning the rights to YOUR album. (Lloyd Green mentioned in his interview re: Chart Records that this is the case with some of his releases)

We should be thankful for the ones we do have. Many ARE available on CD and there's new stuff coming out all the time. We may be a small audience, but we do have a pretty rich recorded heritage to enjoy. You may just have to enjoy some of it on a turntable or cassette player.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Larry, I think you're quite correct but, like Dave, I hesitate to buy cassettes. I, for some reason, find them inconvenient to store, and ALWAYS lose the printed inserts; in addition, the variation in pitch with different casstte-decks is frustrating. They're old technology, of course, and we've all been spoiled by the exotic media available to us today....

I used to have a whole lot of steel albums on vynil when I first started grappling with PSG in the mid-seventies but, sadly, I've lost track of them in the course of moving to the USA. I've tried to replace the ones I really wanted - some because they're terrific records, and some for nostalgia - but have been frustrated when it came to the Curly Chalker and Lloyd Green releases, for example. "Suite Steel' is another one I'd like, and I 'posted' to this effect recently.

Larry's economic reasoning is sound, but I believe an existing market - albeit small - is stimulated when an old record is re-released on CD. With all due respect to Jimmie, I bet he hasn't sold many 12" copies of 'A Ton of Steel' in recent years, while the 'new' CD version has probably done comparatively well.

If there was a way to get Lloyd's, and Curly's, old catalogue out there I imagine we'd see a mini 'boom'! I should stress the word 'mini', I know, but the costly part of the process - the actual recording - is all 'water under the bridge'....

Incidentally, Larry, I am grateful for the vast amount of stuff that has actually made it on to CD - considering the microscopic share of the market that we represent, I should say we're fortunate - but there's no harm in giving a little encouragement to anyone who may be considering taking such a step!

------------------
Roger Rettig
Emmons LGIII(S10/D10)& MCI D10

Michael Garnett · From: Seattle, WA

I think the "CD's cost too much" argument isn't accurate. I read somewhere that a CD costs anywhere between 5 and 10 cents to make professionally, including cover, nifty graphics on the front, and all. If you're going to turn around and sell that bad boy for 15 bucks, if you sell just 1 copy, you've paid for around ONE HUNDRED FIFTY copies. I can see how the CD people aren't hurting much for money. And, for a very small initial investment, granted you can sell off even HALF your copies, you can well afford to give the other half away.

Just my $0.enough to make a CD

Garnett

Glenn Austin · From: Montreal, Canada

At the time a lot of this music was released, the cassette was the medium of choice. It was much cheaper than pressing vinyl LP's. CD's have only been inexpensive since a few years now. Plus, there are probably lots of master tapes that have disappeared or become unplayable over the years too. What I do now, when I buy a prerecorded cassette or LP, is to make my own CD.

Bob Stone · From: Gainesville, FL, USA

Dave,

I doubt anyone is making cassettes rather than CDs today. The cost of making CDs is about the same as cassettes and, as you have noted, CDs are argueably a more user-friendly media--I love 'em. It's likely most of the steel guitar cassettes on the market today are old stock.

You might look into getting equipped to burn your own CDs from old LPs and cassettes. The hardware and software is getting more reasonable every day.

The cost of making CDs, cassettes, or any other recorded media is very much a function of quantity. Just get a price quote from any duplicator (like Oasis or Discmaker) and you'll see. I can't imagine they ever get as low as five or ten cents each, even in quantities of millions. And don't forget those people selling millions of units have a lot invested in slick production, artwork, advertising and promotion, management, etc., which can easily cost more than the physical CD itself.

Many recordings such as folk, bluegrass, jazz, etc. released on independent labels never pay for the cost of production. For example, I read an interview with veteran jazz pianist/singer who said he has made maybe a couple of dozen albums over the years and none of them ever paid for themselves. He's not alone, there are many artists in the same boat.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Makes no difference to me (hell, I still play 78's sometimes!). Tapes are nice because they fit in your shirt-pocket. CD's are nice because of the "instant access". My car and my home stereo play both, so I really can't complain. (I still think the commercial CD's are overpriced, though.)

Terry Miller · From: Hammondsport NY USA

Guys, I'm in the process of putting out a new CD of Jim Murphy and myself. The cost is a lot more than what one might think. The CD itself is not that much but the cost of the art work and insert and the CD add up fast. Most of us that are doing these projects can't aford to by in large quanities to get the cost down. This makes it cost prohibitive to do CD's in some cases. Terry

Steven Knapper · From: Temecula Ca USA

Get a stand alone CD burner, end of problem!! Convert your LP's and cassettes to CD, works for me!!

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

I agree with those that say to burn your own CD. I have a nice unit I like very much. It's a Teac RW-CD22. I bought it about 6 months ago from Costco for about $225 and have got much more than my money's worth out of it already. One neat benefit is that when I make the transfer from cassette tape to cd, I take that opportunity to adjust the pitch control from my Yamaha tape deck if needed, and this way I end up with only the songs I want and at the correct pitch. -- Marc

erik · Posted 6 Feb 2002 1:15 am

Marc, what are you using to determine the correct pitch?

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

"I read somewhere that a CD costs anywhere between 5 and 10 cents to make professionally, including cover, nifty graphics on the front, and all." I just had to reply to this. Michael, I just finished a vocal CD for a lady, my boss, and here's the breakdown of the project, in a very inexpensive studio(mine) and 500 copies.
Musicians and studio time=approx. $5000.
CD graphics and printing, color seperation and 500 copies=approx. $2000.
Total=$7000. approx. and a steel CD would cost about the same in my little project studio. Cost per CD=$14. Eva sells them for $15. each so she makes a big fat profit of $1. each.
These are in Canadian dollars, but I imagine it would be similar in the States.

[This message was edited by John Lacey on 06 February 2002 at 07:27 AM.]

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

I think that they think us country boys don't have CD players. So they put em on tape. But like Donny Hinson said, some of us have both, so we'll take them on either.

BC

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

The point is not whether CDs or cassettes are more expensive to produce. I agree that the difference is probably negligible and submit that very few artists today would even consider relasing something new on cassette. Dave's question regarded older releases, so the overhead has already been spent. For many small projects I'm aware of, there is a rather large box of unopened product, often in the trunk of the artist's car, that will probably never be completely sold. To add production costs to remaster to CD, do the artwork, pay the licensing if you're using other people's songs, and duplicate the CDs, you're just gonna add another box of unopened product AND you're NEVER gonna sell those cassettes.

Just my opinion.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 February 2002 at 10:16 AM.]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Moved from 'Steel Players' to 'Music'. Tough call...

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I think the biggest drawback to cassettes is that they degrade very badly over time. If a tape is played often, it will be noticably noisy and have poor fidelity after only a few years. A few more years and they sound awful, eventually they dry out, get brittle and break. Because of that I consider tapes a very poor investment. If I have to get something on a tape because it's not available on CD, I put it on CD quickly.

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

It could be my cassette players, but I frequently have a problem of cassettes winding to tight and stopping, especially when they're new. Their biggest drawback is that queueing up a particular track is really troublesome. I wish that the steel courses would be offered on CD. No artwork would be required and they could be burned on a computer as needed. So what if all the cassettes haven't been sold. Charge a few bucks more to compensate if need be.
Respectfully,
Dave

erik · Posted 6 Feb 2002 6:18 pm

I use cassettes exclusively in my car. Sometimes i'll buy just a cassette if the price is right. Other times i'll buy the CD and make a custom cassette. I frequently have problems with cassettes. I do a lot of rewinds on songs which causes the tape to tighten on the spool and then as it plays the tape gets stretched in a wow/flutter type of action and before you know it the tape is spent. I have ruined many good tapes and that's why i just make short ones with only a few tunes. I buy 20 and 30 minute blank tapes. I ruined my Alan Jackson tape Under The Influence because i rewound Pop A Top too many times. Sometimes you can save a tape by fast forwarding and rewinding the entire tape a few passes. But once you stretch it it's pretty much over.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

To clarify, I'm not against the price of "indie" CD's. I expect to make one myself, soon, and I know I'll never recoup the costs...and yes, it will probably cost 5 grand (for a run of 200-250 CD's, which translates to $20 each). The thing I resent is the "Mega-CD's", which are produced in the millions, and still cost $14-$18 each. If mass-produced CD's weren't under a buck apeice, AOL would have gone bust long ago! They give away tens of millions of them each year!

No other commodity manufactured in the world holds prices the same when production spirals way up into the millions! High volume always translates into lower prices.

(Except where "greedy" recording companies are concerned.)

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 February 2002 at 09:02 AM.]

Bob Stone · From: Gainesville, FL, USA

I'm with you Donnie Hinson. The big labels have to be making a killing. By the way, it would be interesting to find out how much consumers are paying for advertising if the total cost of advertising was discussed in terms of cost per CD. I remember a program on NPR about "designer" jeans several years back. I recall consumers were paying as much as $20 a pair for advertising for jeans that cost $40! I suspect something similar goes on with the big record labels.

By the way most radio DJs will not touch cassettes. They are too hard to cue and CDs are sooooo easy to cue.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I agree with John Lacey's figures. I suggest that anyone who thinks professionally recorded CD's, with artwork on CD and inserts, jewel boxes, and shrinkwrapping, cost between 5 and 10 cents to manufacture should record his or her own project using a professional studio with professional musicians and see EXACTLY how "inexpensive" it is.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

Herb and Jim, what if you had an older album from the cassette and vinyl days, already recorded, and you owned the master, would it be cost prohibitive to offer it on CD?

Glenn Austin · From: Montreal, Canada

The company that I deal with in Montreal, would charge about 1500 Cdn for 500 CD's ( real etched CD's, not recordables) with a box, shrink wrapping, 2 color graphic (black and white) printed on the CD, and a 2 color card (printed on one side of course) for the lid. If you want 3 or 4 colors the price goes up. If you want a card in the tray behind the disc, the price goes up. If you need mastering, well then add a few hundred more. Just the printing can have a huge impact on the final price tag.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Dave, I've never priced that out but I wouldn't think it would be cost-prohibitive once you have all those fixed costs behind you. Now you'd just need to prep the file for digital processing, and re-master it, maybe re-do or certainly reformat the artwork, and pay royalties again. Then you might be looking at the kind of manufacturing costs that Glenn just mentioned (in Canadian dollars).

Perhaps Brother Herb has a comment here. I think his first release was on cassette only (or was it on "wire-recorder"?

)