Am i getting ripped off?

erik · Posted 16 Oct 2001 2:22 pm

I was in K-Mart today and bought a CD The Best Of John Denver. All the songs are newer recordings. It says it was recorded at 16th Ave Sound in 9/96. Can anyone confirm this? It sounds like John Denver and then it doesn't. Obviously he was older. But, i still expected the original recordings. It is a Madacy product and it seems they specialize in misleading consumers. I have another CD of 60's POP hits that says original artists on the cover. But, in fine print on the back it says "new recordings". Some of them are less than steller... though, the John Denver CD is a quality production.

BTW, i checked myself out at K-Mart. First time. It's faster 'cause most people don't use 'em. It felt weird... i prefer the regular method.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

This CD was apparently recorded from the grave. It's a new trend. I hope to be able to do it myself someday.

erik · Posted 16 Oct 2001 2:40 pm

Jim, it says it was recorded on 9/96. I think he was alive then.

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Well, yes. You and others got ripped off. Re-recordings are a publisher's way to cut out the producer, arranger, even the musicians that worked on the original. It's like this ...... The publisher makes a deal with some cheesy distributer and then goes in and re-records with non-union musicians and with the publisher's nephew Doofus producing. They just steal and copy the arrangements. The songwriters are glad to get re-cuts, they get paid the same royalties.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Oh. well, never mind.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I recently bought "Merle Haggard-20 Hits" (on the Curb label). After listening to a few of them, I read the (inside of) the CD-label-booklet.

"This collection features recent recordings by Merle of his best-loved tunes from the '60s an '70s."

Needless to say...expecting to hear the original sounds, I was very disappointed.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 October 2001 at 04:55 PM.]

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

I think John passed away about October 11, 1997. I was in Austin for my first visit.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

So if it's coming from the grave, do you call it composing or decomposing ??

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

This practice has a mixed sort of feeling for me.
In some cases performers can't get reissues of their older material, due to the original company not wanting to reissue it, or whatever.
There's a lot of great music sitting in the vaults and certain reissue labels seem to prefer to reissue songs and compilations by dead people, less royalties that way. (Practially no-one pays royaltees to surviving relatives or estates)

Anyway, if you've got a great back log of songs and you want to get them out again, what do you do?... well you re-record them and get some more royalties coming in again.
On a more cynical note, this can also provide the artist with a new CD without actually having to bother with new songs and people will buy it on name recognition and nostalgia, or in the cases mainly mentioned here, because they thought it might be the original stuff.

Personally I'm not a big fan of this practice, but then again I haven't been writing and recording songs for over thirty years trying to make a living from those songs.

kyle reid · From: Butte,Mt.usa

B.Cole! Didn't you mean to say ODER? like I saw on [Steel Players]

kyle reid · From: Butte,Mt.usa

Oops I meant on [Pedal Steel]

Mike Weirauch · From: Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe

erik · Posted 17 Oct 2001 1:37 am

I'm still wondering if it is John Denver singing on this disc. I doubt he would have needed the money. His catalog probably generates a large yearly income. I'll tell you this, i've never heard of the musicians. Here's the list:

Chris Nole
Michito Sanchez
Alan Deremo
Pete Huttlinger
Glen Duncan

Maybe these are members of his touring band?

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Glen Duncan is a great fiddle player! He does a pretty good bit of session work here in Nashville.

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Jason: You got me thinking about something I pondered over some years ago. After Patsy Cline and Jim Reeves had died, they put out a song by both of them. The title was: Have You Ever Been Lonely. As I recall they never sang togeather and the record folks dubbed them togeather in harmony. How'd they do that ?

Or was that just a bad rumor passed around back then ??

Best Regards, Paul

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

Paul,
Owen Bradley did that to "I Fall To Pieces" not too many years ago. Surprisingly both Jim and Patsy recorded it in the same key and tempo, so they were able to mix the two versions together and add new background music. Been awhile since I heard it, so I can't say how much of the original background was left on it, if any. And I haven't heard "Have you ever been lonely".

Jussi

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Jussi: Owen did have "The Touch ", didn't he ?? I recently got a CD by Mandy Barnett and four songs stood out from the others. One day while reading the credits, I saw that Owen had done those four and his brother Harold, finished the album after Owen passed away.

I did hear that arrangement of I Fall To Pieces back about that same time. But from my listening point, the other song got a hundreds times more air play. I still hear folks playing it on the jukebox and I'm going to check if that CD has IFTP on it as well.

Don't you think it strange that they would both be singing in the SAME key; on BOTH songs and at the same tempo as well ?? I do !! LuLu Belle and Skyland Scotty used to sing HYEBL back in the late 30s and early 40s but he had a much higher pitched voice than JR. I read somewhere that Scotty was still alive and well in NC but I don't know if that is still true.

And I always get a special kick out of hearing from people all around the world !!
I spent a lot of years in other countries and it was an education for me that I still appreciate> Thank You !!

And thank you too b0b !!

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 17 October 2001 at 06:38 AM.]

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Paul, it's like Jussie wrote, they'd have to have had cut the songs in a similar tempo and key, if not exactly the same for it to actually work. I mean, yeah it would have to be the same key at least!

You can doctor a lot, but back in the 1960s, well it was a lot harder to 'fix in the mix.'

Personally I'm not to wild about re-done recordings by Hank Williams (the with Strings LPs come to mind), Patsy, Eddie Cochran, Hendrix, Buddy Holly, etc. In versions where a bunch of session cats just came in, or strings 'galore' were added, quite often it can be a cold process, and quite removed from the artists actual style.

when the artist is alive and well, an archive revival can be an interesting concept, Neil Young's Unplugged album was great, while others like Rod Stewart seemed to be doing a cabaret version of themselves.
Straight studio reworkings can be an tough one, after it it was that intial sounds as well as the songs that everyone loved, why mess with that?
Then again, if it's your song, why not re-interprate it as often as you like?
I guess it comes down to taste, the artists and the listeners alike.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Jussi is a total natural when it comes to playing steel! I saw him here in Portland with Hal Peters & The String Dusters. They have an excellent CD out. My favorite song is "Your a Mess" which to me is about a guy telling his old lady off for partying to much. Great steel Jussi!
Here's their site: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/halpeters/

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

If you liked the CD and it was a fair price, do you actually feel ripped off? (and I do understand wanting to get the absolute original versions).

I have to respectfully disagree with Mike Holland concerning the comment that re-recordings of original hits done by the original artists are a somehow a publishers scheme to cheat producers, players and the union out of money. Has anyone ever fit that description, sure. But let me give you another take on what is more common;

I am a player, but I'm also in the production and publishing business. In the mid 90's the Gatlin Brothers were on Capitol Records and the thought was to license the original Christmas album (which was on Sony)and put it back on the racks and sell during the Christmas tour (all on the Capitol label). However, the cost of licensing that project was far greater than going back into the studio and re-recording it. All the same players from the first version were used (with few exceptions)and it was definately AFM (union). This album was so cost efficient that Capitol gave us the budget to do the same thing with a greatest hits project. Again, most of the same players and certainly union. Musicians all got paid, studio got paid, engineers got paid, artwork designers, CD and cassette replication, etc... and a project was released that otherwise would certainly have been shelved because of cost.

If it's a problem that it's not the absolute original, read the labels more carefully. A lot of stores carry re-recordings and copy-cat recordings not even done by the original artists. When the Gatlin's Greatest Hits Encore was released, Buddy Emmons did not play "Houston", I did. Then again, I recorded a version of "Houston" before another producer got involved and hired new musicians (Buddy included) and recut most of what we'd already done. If you want to talk about the very first recording of that song, those guys were not the original musicians. I certainly liked what they did and I nearly copied what Buddy did for the re-recording.

Now, "if" that original Christmas album had been licensed, NONE of the players on those sessions would have been paid again. It doesn't work like newly licensed TV or cable performances.

I'd be willing to bet that John Denvers' recording had some great players who were paid very well. And another thing, these re-recorded projects do not make a sizable sum for publishers. Compared to the original sales (assuming it as a hit act and songs), the numbers are very small. Publishing is a tough way to make a living, it's a long-term proposition and getting songs recorded by an act that really sells is just not easy. It's a lot of cost upfront with no guarantee of any income, ever.

Sincerely,

Mike G. Smith
Gatlin Brothers Music, Inc.

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Jason; I guess the gear my mind was stuck in was something Lloyd Green told me one time. He was working a session with Connie Cato (Super Skirt) and they were on a number called; Teeny Tiny Jukebox Band.

They did all the tracks except for hers and then those were speeded up to match her key.
That gave them a Mickey Mouse effect while her voice was natural.

But I can see how mixing two voices would be a whole another thing. Maybe I was just giving those Cats too much credit.

Regards, Paul

erik · Posted 17 Oct 2001 11:45 am

Mike, had i known it was a newer recording of old hits i probably would not have bought it. The musicianship and recording are high quality, but the feel is not the same. It sounds more like an evening with John Denver. It does not capture that canyon ambience you get with the old recordings which IMO make up about 50% of the impact of the songs. This CD is good for a collector of John Denver CDs.

Madacy does a great job in concealing the reality. You say read the labels more clearly. Is that like reading the fine print of a used car deal, or a cell phone contract? What about when you buy a CD from cdnow.com? I got hosed on a few Greatist Hits CDs from them. Music is supposed to be about a relationship between the artist and his/her fans. The CD should clearly state it is a new recording. What's wrong with saying, '[insert name] wanted to give you a modern recording of his/her most requested songs.'? This would be the proper way to label it.

Billy Johnson · From: Nashville, Tn, USA

Well I certainly understand. I bought a 3 CD set of Faron Youngs a few years ago on step one. They were all remakes which did'nt bother me, what did bother me was the fact he was tryin to sing like Dean Martin or someone else. If an artist wants to redo the hits at least sing them close to the original. I bought Farons because the Ray Price set on step one was wonderful, figured his would be also.Not!!
I gave the set away but I'm still a Faron fan.
I was in nite club the other nite and heard a remake CD of the Hags. I won't be buying this one either.
The originals were such classics in sooooo many cases they could never be matched.
If you have never heard the product I'm speaking of then you can't understand my displeasure with it.

[This message was edited by Billy Johnson on 17 October 2001 at 12:52 PM.]

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

You're right, Mike Smith, and after posting I did reconsider that sometimes an artist will want to re-release material but the label to which it was licensed doesn't consider it cost efficient and won't agree to release the masters. That's probably more common, although I do have first hand experience with the exact scenario I first mentioned. The country/gospel artist I worked with at the same time you were with the Gatlins re-recorded and re-released her million selling album with her husband producing. The original was on their own label, too! So it wasn't a matter of licensing, only cutting out the percentages of those originally involved in the production.

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Emmons Push Pull S10 | Peavey Session 400 | '52 Fender Lap Steel | Goodrich L120 & Matchbox

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

This is really interesting, now i have something to add to the topic.
What about 'Hit' packages that are actually reissues of older albums?
I'm going to direct everyone interested in this topic to the recent FReddie Hart topic posted by Gary.

but, I also have another example. I picked up a dirt cheap CD by Bill Haley simply titled 'Bill Haley & The Comets' a 1986 compilation on CD on the Innovative Music Productions label (PCD 383).
At first it looks like a el-cheapo compilation with a late 1950s shot of Bill and the Comets with a gaudy sleeve, etc.
It looked like a piece of crud rip-off dodgy Euro CD.

I looked at the credits and some of the names (band vocalists on other tracks were mentioned, as Bill doesn't sing on them all), and the fact that I recognised some of the pickers, mixed with the original credit of "1968 Sonet, Sweden" made me realise that this was a single CD reissue of a double LP set that Bill and the boys cut for the European Sonet label back in 1968, which was a little hard to find at the time.
So, 20 tracks at a very low price from a period when Bill was one of the first 1950s rockers to stage a comeback LP, yay!
Sure the sleeve looks bad, (horrible red trim, very tacky) and there's no details, but it wasn't a bad score in the end.

The downside of all this is, you can just end up with a really cheap re-recording, some overdubbed tracks, some dodgy non-remastered tracks dubbed straight off a record, the list goes on.

The trick is to check the credits, maybe give it a listen if you're at a sympathetic record store, etc. If someone recommends an LP, and it has a really generic title 'Best of.., Greatest, the Hits of... and so on, find out which release it is and get the label and release number. Make sure you don't get a similarly titled rip-off.
Als a lot of labels have a thing about getting live gigs and issuing them without a warning, this is a big problem with certain labels and Ricky Nelson CDs, if they advertise that it's live, I feel the consumer has been sufficiently warned that the CD may in fact be a dud as live recordings can really vary, due to the recording quality, production and even the performance itself of course.

However, I do feel that artists and labels should make a point of mentioning that the recordings are new version of old hits.

Another thought, a while back (oh, maybe a decade ago), Vern Gosdin did a newly recorded Greatest Hits package, it was a cool idea as a lot of his 1980s material was spread over five or six indie labels, some of which had actually folded and made it a nightmare to assemble an actual compilation of the originals. Like a prior example, it's about all he could do if he ever wanted a set to hit the shops at all.

The downside is that some of those labels have had the masters sold as re-recorded compilations without too much input (well none) from Vern and are misleadingly titled, etc.
It comes down to buyer beware, doing some research and keeping an eye on friends collections for good sets to purchase.
Caveat Empor I guess.

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