A Nail in the Coffin of Live Music

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

Found over in the Hillbilly group

__________________

Today's Austin American Statesman (Michael Corcoran's column)
announced that Maggie Mae's on 6th street plans to "experiment with a
policy that requires bands to put up a deposit in order to be
booked".
Club owner Bill Shea said the band's would get their deposit back
if they drew enough people.
The Federation of Musicians has seen this happen in California
where it has now evolved into a situation whereby in many cities all
the groups have to pay the clubs to play.
As we meet tonight at Antones to celebrate the enormous economic
impact music has on the City of Austin, let us not forget that it is
the musicians who make this music and therefore, it is our duty, to
protect their rights.
I urge all of you to write or call Bill Shea at Maggie Mae's and
let him know we will not tolerate this in Austin, Texas. The
Telephone Number is: 478-8541. Their Fax No. is: 472-1764.
Also, forward this message to your e-mail list (especially other
musicians) and encourage them to
speak out against this.

We need your help to put a stop to this.
Thank you.
ginger l. shults
Vice President
Austin Federation of Musicians

_____________________________________________________

I think this post was in Thursdays Statesman as the Music Councel meeting was
Thursday night.

Has anyone heard anything from that meeting

Has anyone had experiences with a band paying a deposit ?

------------------
Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Leigh Howell · From: Edinburgh, Scotland * R.I.P.

Janice.
I'd cut my own lumber. Mill my own 2x4's etc. and build my own dance hall, before I'd be paying a club owner to play in their place!!!! Thats disgusting!!!

Leigh

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

This is/was a common practice in LA, it's called 'pay to play'. The band sold tickets to all their friends, if they still had any after a few shows. Also a lot of the bookers had lists of bands, those that were more than $100, those that were less and the ones that would play for free. Need I say more.

TomP · From: Encino Ca

Without a doubt, we should strive to protect any intrusion on our ability to make money with live playing. Hopefully, the time will come when the general public will realise the value of live people playing live music. As most can see, however, the skies are indeed cloudy when you look in that direction.
What we CAN do to combat this, and it ain't easy, is work harder to polish what we do so that it is OBVIOUSLY worth the money we need to continue. People just beginning this process will probably have a difficult time, with attitudes like Maggie Mays, getting any sort of foot in the door. Again, the only suggestion I have is to make yourself and your music more valuable, develop as large a following as possible and go after it.
It's sad, but the day may shirley come when it's hard to find people who can play well without using recorded tracks, etc. With the advent of modern recording technology (cd burning, downloading, etc.), it may come to pass that the most profitable part of being a player is the money you make playing live. As an example, the # of times my mp3 has been downloaded from my web site is about 100 times greater than the # of cd's I've sold. So we should, must, hold on to the idea that there are (and there are) people who love to see groups play live music. Strive to get in touch with these people. The pay to play syndrome is reinforced when you book a gig and the only people who show up are the bass player's girlfriend and the drummer's mom. In LA they combat this by booking 3 or 4 bands to play in a night, thereby increasing the # of mom's and girlfriends who show up.
It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.

------------------
-Tom www.tompowell.org

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

It's a disgrace!!!!

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Although rare, this has started happening in Toronto. So far only Rock/Kid Band Clubs.

Everyone I know that has heard of this said they'd refuse to play. I feel the same way, but what if this becomes the only option?

Where's the Union???

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 13 Oct 2001 12:06 pm

Sadly, there are wanna-be musicians out there who have undercut and deteriorated the live music area so much, the local level of playing out is just saturated with those groups who will play for free. It underminds the efforts of all of us. But the AFM could prevail if all legitimate players would join up. If the night clubs would get together and make a bargain around each metro area to only hire legitimate players, then this would all stop. The garage wanna-bes wouldn't have any where to play out and the Better night clubs would have good pickers. It is a sad thing to see this happen. The old dance hall days are nearly gone. There are a few hold outs and I think there will always be a few dance halls that stay legitimate and understanding with the bands. But I come from the arena of "Playing for the Door" anyway. Fortunately the bands were always decent enough to keep people coming in.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I think I'm gonna be sick...

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
But the AFM could prevail if all legitimate players would join up. If the
night clubs would get together and make a bargain around each metro area to only hire legitimate
players, then this would all stop.

It's a nice concept and it's not going to happen for obvious reasons. My experience of the AFM, and I am a member, is that they are not going to be the 'bar police' and it would alienate the 'marginal' clubs, which at least out here, are the ones most likely to feature 'alternative' music. Have you ever tried to get everyone in a band to agree on something, much less a bunch of bands.

Years ago, I played in a rockabilly band at a bar in North Hollywood that featured that kind of music. When the booker at that club was fired, us and all of the other bands of that genre joined together in protest and that was the end of that gig.

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I was a member of the AFM for 35 years. All the help I got from them and a dollar would get me a cup of coffee.

John Paul Jones · From: San Diego

I'm sure there are as many different ways of bands paying to play as there are clubs ...or bands.

Here is the way I heard the a man who owned 3 of LAs hottest clubs explain it.

Say a club seats 500 people and your band wants to book this club. The club sells the band 500 tickets for $1 each, for a total of $500, which the band pays up front. (The deposit referred to?).

If the band sells all the tickets for $10 each they take in $5,000 leaving a profit of $4,500 for a nights work for the band.

If the band sells all the tickets for $5 each they take in $2,500 leaving a profit of $2,000 for a nights work for the band.

The band has to sell 100 tickets to break even.

A band with a great following of well-heeled party people can make a mint.

So, how many dedicated fans can your band consistantly draw at $5 a head for one or two nights a week? You could be making a killing. ...or you could be making $50 or less per night. ...or you could lose $$$.

You takes your chances.

------------------
John Paul Jones

GFI U-12
Evans FET500 amp
ART T2 effects
HM-4 harmony machine

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 14 Oct 2001 9:10 am

I don't understand the club owner who will hire crappy players anyway. It has never made any sense. Every so often I will take blind dates so to speak and sometimes I am shocked at what I find. Some of these bands playing out don't even have one clue as to what they are doing, but the dozen or so bar flys will clap and yell and drink enough I guess to support paying 5 guys to yell and scream over the PA. Its just not my scene. I went through my days of getting fired because I couldn't cut it for the venue. What happened to the integrity of today's club owners?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, I guess some players will do just about anything...just to play. I used to be that way too. Then, one day, I figured that there's no use makin' a fool out of yourself linin' somebody else's pockets just so you can say..."Sure, I'm playing regular!"

You see, other artists and craftsmen don't "give away their trade". When musicians do, it devalues not only them, but everyone else that's trying to make a living. Now I know some people will say "I enjoy playin' so much, I'd do it for nothing!" Well pal, you need to get a life. Man, I just wish I could find a carpenter, or a plumber, or an auto mechanic with that dumb an attitude!

(Haven't seen one though...only frustrated musicians.) I'd even settle for a starving artist (you know, the one's who paint big pictures for $49.95), but even THEY aren't dumb enough to do it for nothing!

Now, if you want to play in church, that's fine. That's not a business. But when it comes to a club, or a bar, or a hall...that's a money-making business, and you're really foolish to do it for nothing. I still do benefits, charity work, ect.. But when it comes to businesses....well, business is business. And another thing, I've played the joints where everything is blamed on the band, too! You know the kind of place...58 degrees in the winter, 92 in the summer, flat draft beer, lousy waitresses, ignorant bartenders, overpriced drinks, filthy restrooms, beat-up furniture, a mud-hole parking lot, and no food fit for a dog. But..."No crowd tonight? It's the bands fault!" Yeah, right.

Well friends, when I reach the point that I have to pay someone for the privilige of playing in their joint, I'll throw the steel in the basement, and leave it there 'til I die!!!

Believe it or not...there can be life without the steel guitar.

Bobby Snell · From: Austin, Texas

More than a decade ago, Maggie Mae's occupied the center of the building, a long and narrow bar with a small raised area to the back. They were practically the only place to have a wide assortment of imported beers in town. They had small bands, specializing in Celtic, Folk, and the like.

Then they expanded into the rest of the building to the east, taking over a large, glass-walled room. They put a stage in the corner, a big window right on 6th street, and had bands playing Pop/Rock/Dance covers.

(Don't remember seeing any steel guitars in that window.)

I don't know what the cover band people are saying about this; don't run in those circles. Guess the rest of us can still be playing for tips in all the little bars around for a while yet.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
When musicians do, it devalues not
only them, but everyone else that's trying to make a living. Now I know some people will say "I enjoy
playin' so much, I'd do it for nothing!" Well pal, you need to get a life

Donny, I agree with you, but for the sake of debate we could look at the other side: probably every musician at one time or another has had the dream of "making it", whatever that means to them. 'Garth Brooks Land' or maybe just getting laid, and this might be the gig where we get discovered. It's most likely a fantasy, but then, you never know. The trajedy is they set themselves up to be taken advantage of. For myself, I've played low dollar gigs, free ones and on occasion ones that ended up costing me money either because they were significant to me, they were too much fun to miss, or I just really really wanted to be there. And sometimes I just want to play my guitar.

Quesney Gibbs · From: Anniston, AL

It has been my experience over the years that 95% of all bar owners are sleeze bags and take advantage of bands, waitresses and anybody else working there. They all want something for nothing and usually get it from bands that are desperate to play. Sadly, there are many sorry ass wanna bee pickers that will do whatever it takes to get on a stage to impress mom, dad and the dumb ass girlfriend who wants to get up and do her Loretta Lynn "You aint woman enough to take my man" song.

That is the sad state of affiars these days and I don't think it will ever change. All apoligies to Loretta....

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

This theme just floors me !!

I cain't believe that a group would PAY a club money to play there..... I thought it was suppose to be the other way around. Man,I cain't run my house like that. I don't mind playin' a freebie ever now and then for a good cause but to pay to play in a club,bar,or event is dumb-a$$. I have always thought them Californians were a bit weird but this takes the cake. I hope this line of thinking never makes it back east to Nashburg...... I'm sure that eventho many are convinced we still smoke corn-cobs and run around barefooted,they understand that we arn't that crazy !!

[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 15 October 2001 at 06:48 AM.]

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Some good points made here. Donny, John Paul, etc.

One thing I've noticed over the years in Austin is: There are so many young (as in just starting out) musicians that are willing to play for tips or nothing just to be heard. And to compound this situation, historically, Austin has had clubs that are willing to hire these youngsters to give them a chance. The Austin Outhouse (R.I.P.) was a fine example of this. However, those types of clubs were (are) not dependant on the draw of the "hungry" bands. Hence, no neccessity to make a certain amount at the door. There is a down side. This particular idiosyncracy of the Austin music scene has created the problem that Austin clubs are notorious for low pay to bands (if they are willing to pay). So it seems like a logical step for enterprising club owners to see if the same bands willing to play for low or no pay just to be heard, will be willing to pay the club to play.

The only way to stop the problem is for these bands to join in a common bond and not play for anything less than a reasonable amount. But as we all know there will always be some bands that won't support a unified boycott of low or no-pay.

About the AFM: In right-to-work states the AFM is limited on what it can do for it's members. If I remember correctly, California is a right-to-work state. What about you guys that belong to the AFM in "closed-shop" states. Do they support their members on performance pay?

The issue of a band not drawing enough of a crowd to make back a "deposit" for tickets sold to a band. Or, in the case where a band is to play for a guarantee against the door. I have one thing to say about this: Unless the band is nationally popular, just showing up is NOT a guarantee of a good crowd. If a club depends on the band to draw their patrons it's a wise choice for the band to invest in advertisement. Whether it's flyers, or ad space in the local newspaper, or ad time on the local broadcast media or all of the above. By doing this sometimes you will lose money, sometimes you will make money. In the long run the investment pays off. But you can never stop the advertisement. It needs to be there. It needs to be treated as an normal operating expense of the band. You have to "seed" the market in order to reap the benefits.

Donny, I hear ya' buddy. The day I have to pay to work is the day I turn my back on the whole nightclub scene and pray that it dies a slow agonizing death.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
I have always thought them
Californians were a bit weird but this takes the cake. I hope this line of thinking never makes it back east
to Nashburg.Sadly, there are many sorry ass wanna bee pickers that will do
whatever it takes to get on a stage to impress mom, dad and the dumb ass girlfriend

What if the stage was full of naked people, mostly women, dancing and it went non-stop for 2 1/2 hours? It cost me, but then, I'm still talking about it today.

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

A band I played with several years ago (in LA) used to open regularly for big name acts. But to GET the gigs they generally had to sell a thousand dollars worth of tickets. To open for "America" at the Roxy, cost these guys Two-grand. I swear. They finally had to call it quits, cause they couldn't afford to be in showbiz. Luckily, I was the hired gun and always got paid.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I understand what someone said about a band making up to $4500 a night. I also understand people become millionaires selling Amway products. However, I suspect that those that do either are really the tiniest minority.

I played in the same club every week for 10 years! You don't do that unless you're doing something terribly right. We even had the owner come to us on two occasions and tell us he was giving us a raise...that we didn't even ask for! 'Course, not all bar owners are like that!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 28 October 2001 at 07:00 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

There are a few pickers in town who rent out a hall and put on a show with 2-3 bands.
They sell tickets and hope for the best.
From the description above it sounds pretty similar to Pay-to-Play.
It's just another label for "cover charge" or "ticket price".
Have you ever heard of a concert getting cancelled for lack of ticket sales. Same thing. The promoter (club owner in this case) doesn't want to get stuck having to pay a band to play to an empty house.
I don't think Pay-to-Play has anything to do with the quality of musicians or plumbers working for free.
It's "stricktly business".
Things have changed in the club/live-music biz.
Keep your day job! (remember that song?!)

erik · Posted 17 Oct 2001 2:23 am

Janice, sounds like a hook:

Another nail in the coffin...
of live music.
A plague to kill a band...
from LA to Massachusetts
If we want to kick a jam
we have to up and pay the man...
Another nail in the coffin...
of live music.

by Erik

Above lyrics are public domain. If you make a hit out of it, buy me a Strat or something.

Steve England · From: Austin, TX

Well, according to yesterday's Austin Chronicle, the owner of Maggie Maes is denying this. He claims that the idea was put to him by a booker who books pay to play bands in LA. Apparantley the Austin Federation of Musicians didn't check with the source, choosing to put out that general alert instead.

He did say that he may consider such a system somewhere down the line. As Bobby Snell stated in an earlier post the bands that play there are top forty cover bands, I don't think anyone actually goes there to see the band, but to drink and get drunk. But I completely agree with the outrage that, and I wouldn't be a bit suprized if such a policy was introduced.

In London there was/is a place that operated a similar policy. They would pay you in free tickets, the ideas behind this being that you can themn sell these tickets to your friends and make money that way. Ridiculous. The alarming thing was that that policy enbabled them to become so powerful that they now hane a virtual stranglehold on any and all roots type music played in London, from what I can gather the live roots scene in London has almost died as a result of this.

An interesting side note to all this is that a study by the Austin Convention and Visitors bureau notes that the music scene in Austin brings in $616 million a year!!!! Wow, someone is getting some heavy action with the the tip jar

[This message was edited by Steve England on 19 October 2001 at 12:57 PM.]

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Me!

BTW: The Kevin Fowler band played a "frat" party at Vibes on 6th St. a couple o' nights ago. Man! Them sorority gals get better lookin' all the time!

Wha...What's that you say?...It's just that I'm just gettin' to be an old fart?

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

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