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Topic: So what qualifies as country music? |
William Peabody
From:
Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 10 May 2001 6:59 pm |
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Do you folks feel there are artists that could be considered pure country? Where do you draw the line? What makes a song 'Country'? (as apposed to Country™)  |
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erik
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Posted 10 May 2001 7:48 pm
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| For me, "Country" is defined by the beat and/or bassline. |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 10 May 2001 8:20 pm
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But don't forget Alvin Crow and Don Walser and their "pure country bands"
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www.jimcohen.com |
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Larry Miller
From:
Dothan AL,USA
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Posted 13 May 2001 4:11 pm
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| I feel like todays country music is over produced, too perfect if you will. The big snare drum in the middle of the mix really gets to me, of course I'm a traditonalist raised on a crosstick on the snare. I also think the rhythm sections are too full, compared to, let's say, one of the most beutiful coutry songs, "Apt #9" by Tammy Wynette. a capoed up flat top,piano,stand up bass, very tasteful drums, and a beautiful simple, I repeat, simple steel guitar part. This song will bring a tear to a glass eye. I doubt, if a current artist recorded this song, that the production could touch what Billy Sherrill did. God Bless Billy Sherrill! Larry |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 13 May 2001 4:17 pm
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I agree with B. Cole.
'Tis better to say what is NOT country than what is. And indeed the recent CMA awards show was NOT country.
Carl |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 May 2001 4:44 pm
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I am inclined to agree, Larry. There is a certain beauty in simplicity, but not everyone appreciates it.
I guess "overproduced" is as good a term as any. Too many instruments, too many tracks, and too much rhythm. There's just so much going on, but most of it's not really significant. There is a sameness, and lack of character that many people are finally noticing in most modern country music. All compressed and processed, much of the music doesen't really say anything, it just drones.  |
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Larry Miller
From:
Dothan AL,USA
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Posted 13 May 2001 5:29 pm
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Donnie, I also think the Tele is overused. it is on every song. The Tele used to be a west coast thing Don Rich, James Burton, Roy Nichols. The eastern country relied on Gibsons the ES350, Byrdland, Les Paul Models, and ES335. Now they are all Tele's playing 90 notes a second, which is very impressive, but is not necessary on every song. This could also be said of all instruments on todays records, it's just one big jam session record after record. There is no suspense in any of the instrumentation, it just comes at you right out the gate, in your face. All of the voices sound similar, there are exceptions Toby Keith and Daryl Singletary come to mind, but I think for the most part it is the production. Larry  |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 13 May 2001 5:40 pm
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Larry: You bring up a point when you mentioned the cross stick on the snare. I remember in the 60's when a Ray Price shuffle or similar was defined by walking bass and the drummer playing dotted 8ths with the brush in the right hand and the cross stick doing 2 and 4, all on the snare.
Was that a local thing? Does it ring a bell for anyone else? |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 May 2001 6:24 pm
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Country music has deliberately simple bass lines and drum parts and acoustic rhythm guitars. Country prefers major key signatures and major chords (though minors are allowed). Country has melodies that follow the chords. It is in 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4 time.
Country has lyrics that tell a story or express a heartfelt emotion. Or both.
Country music is mixed to sound mostly acoustic, even when it uses electric instruments. The vocalist sings with an American accent, and is usually the loudest "instrument" in the band. This is necessary to convey the most important feature of country songs - the lyrics.
Country music usually includes fiddle and/or pedal steel guitar. The presence of these instruments doesn't actually "define" country, but it's harder to create the country sound without them.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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erik
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Posted 14 May 2001 1:40 am
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| Bobby Lee, you just decribed the new song i'm workin' on. In fact, this whole multi-thread debate about what constitutes Country music inspired me to write it. |
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John P. Phillips
From:
Folkston, Ga. U.S.A., R.I.P.
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Posted 14 May 2001 2:33 am
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I won't get philosophical with this, Country is "GEORGE JONES" That simple!!!
Tom T.Hall also gave us his definition a few years ago . Remember "COUNTRY IS" ?????
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If it feels good. do it.
If it feels Country,
DO IT TWICE
JPP
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 14 May 2001 7:40 am
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Real country music is the music you liked back before you got married
(the first time ) and still had hair.
An example of how rediculous the dogmatic approach to what is real or not is statements like this:
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| I feel like todays country music is over produced, too perfect if you will..................................God Bless Billy Sherrill! |
I love Billy Sherrill's production but you gotta admit the guy layed it on pretty thick.
Bob |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 9:12 am
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I think it's important for us, as musicians, to understand what components make music sound "country" (or "rock", or "jazz") to listeners who aren't musicians. This knowledge is very useful on the bandstand and in the studio. That's why I try to make a technical definition.
Saying "Country is George Jones" or "Country is anything you play in a honky tonk" doesn't really help. Many listeners have never heard Jones or visited a honky tonk, but they know instictively what sounds "country" and what doesn't.
So what elements make today's NCS radio sound 'country" to the audience's ears? I maintain that it's the vocals, the lyrics, the use of major keys, the bass lines, the acoustic guitars, and the mixing. Oh yeah, the fiddle and steel do the trick when other elements are missing.
I can tell NCS from 70's rock by listening to the mix and the vocals. When it's a close call, the presence of fiddle and steel usually push it over the edge (barely!) into country. This music cannot be played on pop radio because of the fiddle and steel! Doesn't that tell you something? Shania remixes without fiddle and steel for the European pop market. Duh!
This watering down of pure country has benefits for us as steel players, though. I can work with rock musicians because rock-flavored country gathered such a large audience. These musicians can book venues where steel was never played in earlier days. Wider exposure of the instrument is good for us as musicians.
The downside, of course, is that traditional country music is not being heard as much. It hasn't disappeared, though, and it's in no real danger. People who love it will continue to play it, and the huge CD market assures us that real country recordings (both new and old) will continue to be available for a very long time.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 10:01 am
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| Quote: |
| So what elements make today's NCS radio sound 'country" to the audience's ears? I maintain that it's the vocals, the lyrics, the use of major keys, the bass lines, the acoustic guitars, and the mixing. Oh yeah, the fiddle and steel do the trick when other elements are missing. |
I think that about sums it up. Especially the vocals (as you said earlier, they're the loudest "instrument") and the lyrics. Even when the lyrics are "so-so", the vocals are still the primary element of the song.
I'm curious, though, about your comment on "major keys". I agree that almost all of country music is in a major key. But, what "modern" music can't be described in this way? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not familiar with any type of music that I'd describe otherwise.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 14 May 2001 10:57 am
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 11:14 am
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About major keys... The pop music today that has chords progressions (some doesn't) tends to play free and loose with key signatures. There are lots of temporary modulations and use of chords from outside of the key. By contrast, country music tends more towards I-IV-V and their relative minors vi-ii-iii.
Traditionally, the use of relative minors was part of what distinguished pop from country. As country started to include relative minors more (in the 70's, I think), pop/rock started to leave the space of the key signature more often with chords like the b7 major and b3 major.
Pop also started to include sus4 and add9 chords more often, which are which are part of the major key. As country started to include those chords, the alternative rock folks moved even further from the key signature. The classic alt-rock sound is a 4-chord repetition where all 4 chords share one common note (often the high E of the guitar). The chords are largely unrelated except for the inclusion of that drone note, and the melody cannot be constructed from a traditional major scale.
On the softer side of pop, it's hard to find a song today where the verse and chorus are in the same key. Temporary modulations (one or two bars) are very common, and the use of minor chords has reached the point where the distinction between major and minor keys rests solely on the location of the V7 chord. (With no sharps or flats, the only real way to tell C major from A minor is to hear G7 or E7 as the V7.)
This is why I say that country "favors" the major keys. A country song in a minor key is seriously minor. It will have dark lyrics and a prominent b3 in the melody. You know it's minor!
Country can get very sad in major keys, where pop relies on major/minor ambiguity to expresses more subtle, less "heartfelt" emotions. Maybe that's why we love "pure country" so much. It expresses the extremes of joy and sorrow by distilling music to its simpler elements.
As much as I analyze it, I keep coming back to the vocals, though. The singer's ability to communicate is the cornerstone of country. When it loses that, I'm out of here!
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 14 May 2001 at 12:15 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 11:19 am
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| Jim, the Blues Identifier service is the one I'm interested in. Blues fans are in dire need of such a service! |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 11:49 am
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| Quote: |
| Maybe that's why we love "pure country" so much. It expresses the extremes of joy and sorrow by distilling music to its simpler elements. |
Agreed. KISS applies well to country music.
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| As much as I analyze it, I keep coming back to the vocals, though. The singer's ability to communicate is the cornerstone of country |
Agreed again.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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erik
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Posted 14 May 2001 2:22 pm
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| David, all House, Garage House, and Deep House music is in minor key. |
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Larry Miller
From:
Dothan AL,USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 5:21 pm
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_____________________________________________
Quote: An example of how ridiculous the dogmatic approach to what is real or not is statements like this:
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Well, between the first part of my statement and the last part of my statement, there were a whole lot of other words in between. Please explain to me what was "laid on pretty thick" on "Apt #9". As far as being dogmatic, I was just expressing my opinion, I don't expect everyone to agree, I'm just throwing it out there. But Billy Sherrills' production credits stand on their own merit.
George Jones country?
Tammy Wynette country?
George & Tammy country?
Johnny Paycheck country?
John Anderson country? |
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erik
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Posted 14 May 2001 6:14 pm
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| It was Norro Wilson that produced John Anderson. You could say he was a protege of Sherrill's. |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 7:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| all House, Garage House, and Deep House music is in minor key. |
What a sheltered life I must lead. Never even heard of that music before.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 14 May 2001 7:13 pm
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| Quote: |
| A country song in a minor key is seriously minor. It will have dark lyrics and a prominent b3 in the melody. You know it's minor! |
Would "Where've You Been?" by Kathy Mattea be a good example of that?
I love that song.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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John P. Phillips
From:
Folkston, Ga. U.S.A., R.I.P.
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Posted 14 May 2001 7:57 pm
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DUHHH!!! Guys could you explain that for me in English??
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If it feels good. do it.
If it feels Country,
DO IT TWICE
JPP
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