Cougar Steel Deal

John Rickard · From: Phoenix (It's A Dry Heave) AZ

Check out the deal I got! Here is the link to the original POST. I received this Cougar Steel the other day expecting a like new steel and found it to have a issues. The body has cracks, the left endplate is gouged and the right endplate is screwed up. I know these steels are not Emmons, Williams, Fessy, etc, quality but that is why I believed my $1000 dollars should have got me a near perfect steel as advertised. After the shock, I emailed the seller this letter:

I'm not one to complain or nit pick about things but when I looked over this steel I definately would have to say it has a few issues. Here are some photos of the cracks on the body and the gouge on the end plate and the blem on the other endplate. $1000 may not seem like alot for a steel but I honestly don't think this one comes close to the mark, especially when I could have bought a high quality GFI or similar model for a couple hundred more dollars. Overall it is not much better than a student model, The cabinet flex is the worst I've seen (due to poor construction, no reinforcement in the cab). This is my typical luck. I could go on but what's the point?
John Rickard

I tried calling the last 2 days.

This is the reply I got.

John I did not see any cracks in that steel.I did notice those two little nicks in the chrome on the front on the top. To me those are nothing all you have to do is get a small fine file and file them and polish them.I do not know anything about cabinet drop.I did not see this Steel until I picked it up.I did not even look it over as Andy is a freind and i put it on the forum for him.I guess i should have sold it to one of the other three guys that wanted it.I bought a brand New Emmons LaGrande III from a good freind in North Carolina and when I got it he had changed the Pick up in it and the sodering job on the wires were like someone chewed Gum and stuck it on it.Now I payed $2500.00 for this steel and I did not complain to him I got it fixed by another freind.I'm sorry you are not happy with it. Put it on the forum and sell it and get your money back I'm sure someone out there would be happy to own it.

I've bought many items from forum members with no problems.

Should I sell this to one of you guys?

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What do you guys think?
JR

[This message was edited by John Rickard on 17 January 2006 at 03:37 PM.]

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I think you have every right to be less than happy John. I dont want to step in the middle here, maybe those cracks occured during shipping, but at the very least "like new, never played, implies NO dings, polishable or otherwise.

I am afraid to buy any guitar now I havent played first for just this reason. i think the seller should refund your money, and i thank you in advance for not trying to foist that cracked egg off on another forum member...

Curt Langston · Posted 17 Jan 2006 4:09 pm

That crack bothers me also.............

Brian Henry · Posted 17 Jan 2006 5:10 pm

John,

This looks to be a very nice guitar. How does it sound? Do you like the sound? I know it has some issues but I think you got a bargain. Cougars are very well made.

It looks very fixable to me. That crack does not seem to be all the way through otherwise it would have split the mica on top. It could be easily repaired. The end plate just needs some sanding and put on a buffing wheel.

If you decide to sell it what would you expect for it?

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Ridiculous.....I would definitely expect a refund. He misrepresented it. That crack is especially alarming.

You have my sympathy.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

You should get your money back.

Is the crack on the pad side of the body? If so, take the pad off and see if the crack goes all the way through.

The gouges on the endplates would have to be chased pretty far to get them out.

edit: I wonder if the three other guys on the forum who were interested in it would pay $1000 for it after seeing these pictures???

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 17 January 2006 at 05:35 PM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

So let's see--the problem is not the guitar--the problem is YOU for complaining, John. The guitar is good because it was being sold by Sammy's freind so it had to be good. Period. It should have been sold to someone else other than you, then there would be no problem. You should sell it to someone else on the forum and get your money back. Then it will be someone else's problem. So what if it is damaged and nothing like it was described. Sammy's not worried so you shouldn't be either.
Man, that's Classy. Nothing like integrity.

Brian Henry · Posted 17 Jan 2006 5:43 pm

John,

If you had known about these "flaws" how much would you have paid for it?

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

OK Guys hear is what is happening. I put this Cougar steel on the Forum to sell for a freind. John sent the Check to me and I deposited it into my bank account and then after it cleared I took out the money and gave it to my freind and he paid me back the money for shipping. This Steel was not in that condition when I shipped it out. I showed it to three other freinds and they said it was a nice looking steel.Now I have been getting these E-Mails from some freind of Johns and he said when they get through with me my name will be distroyed.This is the kind of guy he is.The E-Mail address I get the E-Mails from is gfm6@adelphia.net I do think this is Harassment what do you think.Like I said to him and he put it on the forum if he does'nt like the Steel put it on the Forum and I'm sure some one out there would like to have it.
Sam White

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Sorry Mr. White. I do a lot of woodworking and can tell you that the split in the photo did not just happen. That guitar WAS split when you sent it. You can look at the discoloration in the split as see that it is not recent. It has been there a while. A new opening in maple would be much whiter than the surrounding wood. The underside of that Cougar guitar is sprayed with a clear coating that has turned an amber color. A fresh split would expose the light colored maple. You are wrong about the condition of this instrument when shipped.

If you take a magnifying glass and look at the split and see what the finish looks like around it, you would be able to narrow down the time frame even more. Just looking at the photo is enough for me.

You also don't have much of an idea just what kind of trauma would have to happen to this guitar in shipment to cause a solid piece of maple to split like that. There would be obvious damage to the shipping box and the case. No way it was split in shipping.

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

I believe that when a forum member posts any item for sale for a friend, the member assumes the responsibility for the integrity of that item. This is the quote from the original listing:

quote:
It is a beautiful steel and never been used.
Sam White

This is obviously a false statement. To simply advise John to pass his problem on to another unsuspecting forum member is in bad taste to say the least. I would not be able to trust such an individual who would take $1000 from an individual and leave them with the impression "tough luck, live with it or stick it to someone else!"

In contrast, my admiration to John for not following that advise and instead, making everyone aware that this guitar has serious flaws. John I wouldn't hesitate to deal with you! The same can not be said for the other party involved.

As a woodworker myself, I totally agree with Bill Hatcher and couldn't have said it better myself.
Dave

[This message was edited by David Higginbotham on 17 January 2006 at 07:30 PM.]

Gary Arnold · From: Panhandle of Florida, USA

Samuel, I think if you ever want to sell or buy any thing on this forum every again you might want to get with your friend and contact the buyer and get this worked out,and
I don't mean put it on the forum and sell it to one of us,it's already dead in the water now.Some times selling for a friend can come back to bite us in the butt.
A member.

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

Jack Mansfield · From: Reno, NV

I never buy anything on ebay, because of these kinds of problems. Are we becoming ForumBay! I assume I can trust the people on this forum to purchase something without being surprised!

John Rickard · From: Phoenix (It's A Dry Heave) AZ

All I wanted was a nice lightweight steel for the gigs that we fly to.

tbhenry---This was not supposed to be a fixer upper. I believe it is still worth about $600 as is. It has a very nice case.

Sam---I don't know who's harrassing you. All I am interested in are the opinions of my fellow Steel Players and a possible solution.

JR

Mike Weirauch · From: Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe

Sam, the fair and objective solution would be to refund the buyer's money and he release the guitar and your friend could sell it again. That appears to be the most logical solution offering the least amount of egg on one's face. Remember, it's your reputation and integrity one the line, not your friends.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

the response is pathetic.
"dont like the broken misrepresented guitar i sold you? sell it to some other forum member!"

name=mudd

Ron ! · Posted 17 Jan 2006 10:40 pm

Bodyflex in this guitar is not a big surprise when I see the cabinet.Cougar is a good steel guitar and I never seen one that had a crack in it.Nicks on the end-plates take a lot of time to fix.

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

As I see it, it doesn't matter whether the dings and the crack happened in transit or not. If they weren't there before shipping, it was not packed well enough by the seller. The only honorable thing to do is to take it back for a full refund. Under NO circumstances should the buyer be the one left holding the bag.

------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000

Gerald Pierce · From: Maydelle, Republic of Texas

On ebay you can look at feedback from the previous transactions with a seller, and the honest ones will usually let you know if they don't know beans about a particular item. I've made many purchases there and never been stung, but I never buy without checking out feedback for the seller (I've passed on many "deals" because an item was the first transaction for a seller).

After spending a lot of time on the forum, you begin to recognize some of the sellers by name and sometimes see recommendations from other sellers, such as "I've seen this guitar, it's a keeper" or "I've dealt with so 'n so and he's an honest, up-front guy". But with many of the items sold here, all you have to go by is that it's a fellow forumite (and most of the time that's probably all you need to know).

Maybe it would help to have a feedback system for the forum. Of course, more services means more expense. On the other hand, this whole string of posts is in response to a single "feedback" statement. Might be cheaper to just leave a brief feedback statement, thus saving all this space we're using by responding to this post.....Nah! It wouldn't be the same. Maybe that's why they call this a forum.
G.P.

P.S. - I'd want my money back.

Brian Henry · Posted 18 Jan 2006 4:12 am

John,

Since you feel that this guitar is worth about $600 perhaps a way to solve this problem would be to ask for a $400 refund. This would be enough to get it repaired. In fact there is a new JCH body on ebay for $125 right now.

Brian Henry · Posted 18 Jan 2006 4:38 am

On the other hand if you are not interested in fixing trhis guitar just sell it on the forum for $600. There are some of us who are already interested. We know its history and its problems. You could get a $400 refund from the previous seller.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Mr. Steenwijk, it does make a difference. I don't know what your experience is with repairing instruments, but I have done it for 30+ years and have built 30 custom instruments from raw lumber so that is where I come from experience wise.

First of all we are in agreement that the person who bought this instrument deserves to get his money back!!

Now for the split--some folks look at a split in a guitar and just see the split. I am looking at the entire integrity of the guitar. I ask if the split was on the pad side and if he could take the pad off and see if it came all the way through to the other side. If it does then that is MUCH worse than if it does not. THAT is what I am getting at here. Splits are not just splits. There are bad and not so bad. Some have a greater impact on the sonic qualities of the instrument and some don't.

I don't know if you noticed or not but I sure noticed the glue line between the two pieces of maple on this guitar. You can be sure of the fact that there is still plenty of contact along the glue surface where the two pieces of maple join, but having a glue line open up like that along the entire length of the guitar might be an indication of why the split opened up. If you look at the picture of the small split you will see the open glue line and the color the wood has oxidized to in the line. It is virtually the same color as the split, which gets to my original question.
If the split is not through to the top then the split may be what in woodworking is called a "check". The wood may have an almost impossible to see stress fracture in it that is sometimes below the surface. The builder may have pieced these two sections together and that check opened up after the instrument was finished. I would want to look at the split to see if there is any finish down in it--that would indicate whether or not the split was in the guitar when it was actually built!!

I won't bore you any more with what I think about the relationship of the split with where it is on the guitar and what effect that has on the cabinet drop etc.

I would say that knowing the construction of Cougar instruments the cabinet drop would be there anyway. His instruments are of good solid quality, certainly not in the Zum, Sho Bud Emmons league--even those had cabinet drop problems in the past---but they filled a segment in the steel guitar world for an instrument that provided a lot of fine service for an attractive price.

I just hope these two guys give a full refund or at least a rebate on the selling price now that the problems with the guitar are well known.

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

I will call my freind that owned this Steel and see what he is going to do.I do not beleave I should give John money that. I feel that is up to my freind that owned it. It is Insured for $1000.00 with Fed EX so it had to hapen in the handling of this steel. Like I said it was in great shape when I shipped it I have three witnesses besides myself. Like my wife said how do we know if he has another Cougar Steel and this is the one he showed the Pic of.I will call my freind and tell him and I will let John know what he plans on doing about it. As far as myself I feel why should I give my money I got nothing out of this deal but all this static.I just done a freind a favor.This is a D_10 Cougar with 3 pedals and four Knee Levers.
Sam White

[This message was edited by Samuel E. White on 18 January 2006 at 07:53 AM.]

George Manno · From: chicago

If it were my name that was being slung in the mud I would certainly do everything in my power to make things right before I dared post anything else.
It is a shame when something like this happens. Good people can turn sour in the blink of an eye.
I hope that everyone concerned would own up to their responsibility and make things right.
After viewing these photos, a full refund would be the only RIGHT thing to do, but then again it is only my opinion as a God fearing man.
GM

[This message was edited by George Manno on 18 January 2006 at 09:58 AM.]

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