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Topic: Playing in tune |
Stephen Budge
From:
Canberra, Australia
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Posted 13 Jan 2025 8:05 pm |
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| As a really new player to pedal steel and living in Australia with no one to ask. I have a basic question on technique. I use a Peterson tuner and can tune the guitar fine. So far all good. My question is do I play to the tuner or to the frets as obviously there is a difference. Seems like silly question and I figured it must be to the tuner to be able to play with other instruments. Is that a part of learning the pedal steel and playing in tune? I know the frets are just a guide but not being sure is annoying. Each fret is slightly different in pitch and the distance changes as I work up the board. By the time I get to open E it is directly above the fret but on open G say it is 15mm /.5inch behind the fret. As I say sorry for the basic question. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2025 9:49 pm
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When you say “by the time you get to open E”, do you mean E at the 12th fret of an E9 neck?
Measure the distance from the 12th fret to the center/top of one of the changer fingers, then measure from the 12th fret to the center/top of one of the roller nuts. Those two measurements should be the same. If they’re not, then the wrong fretboard was installed for the scale length of your guitar neck. |
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Stephen Budge
From:
Canberra, Australia
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 2:14 am
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| Thanks for the reply. It is a GFI expo and seems to be set up ok. I brought it new here in Australia and to be honest it cost a lot. I was talking about E at the 12th fret of an E9 neck. On a tuner it is correct in the sense that it reads E not sharp ect. I may be phrasing the question wrong. Its more to do with do you play to for example C on the 8 fret no pedals so it is actually C on the tuner or do you play to the fretted note which is sharp according to the tuner. I understand I may be answering my own question but I have no one to check it all with and I don't want to have the wrong idea and waste my time learning the wrong thing. |
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Dan Kelly
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 3:18 am
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My experience has been that the fret markers are just a pretty accurate guide. But, the PSG is still a "fret-less" instrument. Therefore, things like bar pressure and how well one holds the bar perpendicular to the strings are going to have an effect on your intonation or how well you play in tune.
Bar pressure, for instance is not that big an issue at the first fret... but it becomes more of a factor at the 13th fret. The more you work your way up the neck, the more critical things become.
The good news is that seat time and well disciplined practice solves most all of these issues and one adapts to the demands of this instrument.
_________________
blah, blah, blah.
Hey You Kids! Get Off My Lawn!
blah, blah, blah. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 4:01 am
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The fret markers are most likely accurate, but you may not have the experience to realize that you are slightly off physically.
This is very easy mistake and I remember finding this issue a bit frustrating when I started playing steel.
It is because there can be a parallax effect when you are looking at the bar and so it looks like it is lining up the fret markers when it really isn't quite there.
You can adjust your seating a bit to the right to see better, but the real solution is to develop an ear for when you are in tune which will come with practice. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 7:43 am
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Parallax is an issue, but half an inch off the fret is big. Let’s try something else.
When you look straight down on the bar for your G chord at the 3rd fret, does it still look to be 15mm off? Remember, the middle of bar hits the strings, so half of it should appear somewhat past the fret, and half should appear somewhat behind. Then check it with your tuner.
If the middle of the bar is pretty close to the middle of the fret when the tuner matches the note you’re playing, then parallax is the issue and you just have grow accustomed to the view.
Eventually, your ear becomes the more reliable guide. Many experienced players can play without looking at their bar hand.
To answer your question directly, you place the bar so the note or chord is in tune, not necessarily perfectly aligned with the fret. |
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Larry Hobson
From:
Valley Grande (Selma) Al USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 9:38 am Playing in tune
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| Good question. All of the above responses seem to relate to a static bar position at which time you might be adding bar vibrato anyway so there goes your (is the bar directly over the fret marker question) as for me,when the bar is moving to position at a particular fret, I see the fret marker and I go there but where the bar precisely ends up at isn't determined by eyeballing but by my ear. Don't think it's possible to play in tune other way. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 10:17 am
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Stephen, are you using a non-standard "sweetened" tuning such as OE9 or SE9 with your Peterson tuner? If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like your tuner reads off when you check it with the bar at different frets, except at fret 12. A sweetened (non equal temperament) tuning will only read accurately in the open position (or precisely at the 12th fret). The tuner is reading absolute pitches relative to the compensated offset pitches of the open E9 chord. When you move the bar the tuner still thinks you're playing open E9, so notes will read off even when they are actually in tune relative to the open chord at another given fret position. If you're using a preset such as OE9 that has the E strings tuned straight up, it should still read correctly on strings 4 and 8 at any given fret, but most other strings will be off.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 12:33 pm
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If you tune an open E string straight-up to an A•440 tuner, an E will be an E at the 12th fret and the G will be a G at the 3rd fret. Just make sure you’re looking straight down on the bar when you check. The fret should be dang close to straight under the middle of the bar.
I that test is successful, you can tune any way you want and use the frets as reference and not absolute positions for the bar. We just need to clear up whether the problem is your unfamiliarity with parallax or if there is something wrong with the guitar.
Hopefully this is not turning into a “paralysis by analysis” advice column.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 14 Jan 2025 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 12:40 pm
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Stephen once you're tuned, use the fret markers as a reference to get close...but use your ears to fine tune. Since the strings sit so far off the frets, parallax becomes an issue and it's hard to tell when you're exactly over the fret....and this perspective changes as you go up and down the neck.
As far as checking fret accuracy with your Peterson tuner, assuming you're using one of the pedal steel "sweeteners," that could get tricky because of the way sweetened tunings work. A lot of "sweetened" notes are intentionally flat or sharp. For instance, if you're using the OE9 sweetener, your E's will be pretty much straight up...no offset. But in the same sweetener, the G's register in tune when they're around 3.9 cents flat of Equal Temperament. (Even more, your G# is 13.7 cents flat, and C# and F are 15.7 cents flat)
So if you're playing in G on the third fret, you would want to be over the fret (because G is now the root like E was open) BUT if you check that note while in OE9 sweetened tuning, it's going to read 3.9 cents flat. The frets will only be in agreement with your tuner on the open strings and 12th fret...which is pretty much what you described. As I understand things, the only way your tuner will be in agreement with all your frets is if you both tune and verify in the EQU setting (Equal Temperament) and most of us are in agreement (can of worms here...) that ET is not a good way to tune. So don't play to the tuner. Intonation can be a moving target, use the frets to get you close, and then trust your ear.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 3:07 pm
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I love how everyone reads what's already been said in these threads before adding their $0.02 
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 3:24 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| I love how everyone reads what's already been said in these threads before adding their $0.02 |
✅
And acknowledging the validity of the comment when they do read it |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 4:00 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| I love how everyone reads what's already been said in these threads before adding their $0.02 |
I've been wrong before, so please don't take offense if I misunderstood your post...which I did read....and made a slight correction in my answer. My understanding is that using OE9 or SE9, even strings 4 and 8 will not agree with the tuner as you go up the neck as you suggested. True, in the no-pedal position they are the roots and would be played directly over the fret to keep the root at "0" offset. But if you use the tuner to check that while in sweetened mode, since the note is no longer E, it will read flat at most frets regardless of which string.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2025 5:57 pm
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| Stephen Budge wrote: |
| I may be phrasing the question wrong. Its more to do with do you play to for example C on the 8 fret no pedals so it is actually C on the tuner or do you play to the fretted note which is sharp according to the tuner. I understand I may be answering my own question but I have no one to check it all with and I don't want to have the wrong idea and waste my time learning the wrong thing. |
Your question was very clear. The answers have become convoluted because the particular method of tuning your guitar is unknown to the responders.
The answer, as you appear to have already guessed, is that the C on the tuner is more correct than the C position on the fretboard. There may be a slight noticeable difference between the two, depending on tuning method. But that difference should never be anything close to 1/2 inch. That is why the concept of parallax was brought up along with the idea that maybe something was wrong with the guitar fretboard. Your eyes can trick you. That, and developing an ear for pitch are two of the technical hurdles that a beginning Steeler has to overcome when building basic technique. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 15 Jan 2025 7:54 am
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| Stephen Budge wrote: |
| I may be phrasing the question wrong. Its more to do with do you play to for example C on the 8 fret no pedals so it is actually C on the tuner or do you play to the fretted note which is sharp according to the tuner. I understand I may be answering my own question but I have no one to check it all with and I don't want to have the wrong idea and waste my time learning the wrong thing. |
As a rule, you shouldn't play to either the fret or tuner. Tune the open strings and pedals, then shut the tuner off. From this point forward, the only thing that matters is playing in tune to who or whatever is accompanying you. Your bar position will be somewhere in the vicinity of the fret, but you'll need to use your ear to make fine adjustments.
One important piece of information that I haven't read is which setting you are using on your Peterson tuner. This is pertinent because the pitch of the notes vary in each of the sweeteners. A "C" note in one sweetener will not be the same pitch as in another. Nor will it match a piano A=440 reference except in the EQU setting. In the OE9 sweetener all notes except your E's are flattened to some degree. The SE9 tuning is essentially the same, except the entire tuning is shifted 9.8 cents sharp. In other words, compared to A=440 reference, your E's in SE9 are 9.8 cents sharp...but all the other flattened notes are a little less flat. This may be TMI, but the point is that there are a lot of variables if you try to use your tuner to figure out where to place your bar. Parallax, bar pressure, and cabinet drop, and which sweetener you choose, all make bar position a moving target if you're trying to check it against a tuner.
In the end, the only thing that truly matters is training your ear to play in tune with other instruments.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough
Last edited by Tommy Mc on 15 Jan 2025 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Jan 2025 8:19 am
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well me, odd man out as usual. I tune the E's to 441 or maybe even 442, then use a cheap Music Store $10 tuner to bring me to what was real close, then my ears take over.
Many years back I was with John Fabian at a Jeff Newman class, Jeff had everyone playing some "A" phrases, I decided to play OPEN A, Pedal Down. Jeff came over and asked me what I was doing , I said playing in "A" open tuning AB pedals down. He asked what I was tuned to, I told him 442, he said " never mind " laughed and went back to his podium !
I am not familiar at all with Pederson Strobe Tunings , but I read that they are pretty good.
Oh yeah another 2 cents, the fret markers are in my mind ref lines but they are useless in the dark! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Stephen Budge
From:
Canberra, Australia
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Posted 15 Jan 2025 1:14 pm
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| Thank you all for your replies and advise. I have read them all and I think the main problem is I am using sweetners on the peterson tuner and I understand the parallax effect more now. I will try alternative tuning setting as test the difference. With the use of my ears more I can hear the difference in pitch but will focus more attention to it. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2025 10:49 pm
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Yes - Use your ears more often than not. 
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Jan 2025 6:26 am Re: Playing in tune
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| Stephen Budge wrote: |
| As a really new player to pedal steel and living in Australia with no one to ask. I have a basic question on technique. I use a Peterson tuner and can tune the guitar fine. So far all good. My question is do I play to the tuner or to the frets as obviously there is a difference... |
Neither, really. The tuner is only used for tuning, never when you're playing (using the bar). The frets on a pedal steel are only a rough guide as to where to place the bar. The trained ear is the best and final tool when it comes to tuning and playing; not frets, not charts, not tuners, not offsets or temperaments. The only thing that matters is how it sounds. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Jan 2025 9:02 am Re: Playing in tune
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Stephen Budge wrote: |
| As a really new player to pedal steel and living in Australia with no one to ask. I have a basic question on technique. I use a Peterson tuner and can tune the guitar fine. So far all good. My question is do I play to the tuner or to the frets as obviously there is a difference... |
Neither, really. The tuner is only used for tuning, never when you're playing (using the bar). The frets on a pedal steel are only a rough guide as to where to place the bar. The trained ear is the best and final tool when it comes to tuning and playing; not frets, not charts, not tuners, not offsets or temperaments. The only thing that matters is how it sounds. |
This! Donny beat me to it.
I will also say that the Peterson Strobo Stomp HD tuner I'm using these days is the best and most accurate tuner I've ever used. Absolutely great for guitar, but I far underutilize its capabilities for pedal steel. I normally grab an E=442 and tune the rest by ear. But in a situation where I truly must tune silently or something goes crazy in the middle of a song, the SE9 (open strings) and SP9 (pedals and levers) get me in the ballpark until I can make ear adjustments.
But if you really wanna go whole hog, you can do a careful tuning by whatever method you like, and then program the offsets. I've done that a couple of times with different steels, and each guitar was different enough to make it a PITA. So if I'm stuck tuning silently, which doesn't happen often, I just use SE9 and SP9. |
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Dean Gray
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 28 Jan 2025 6:00 pm
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Hi Stephen I’m a pedal steel player (as well as non pedal and dobro) based in the Bega Valley, NSW. If you feel like making the trip sometime I would be happy to give you a few pointers to help the beginning stages go a bit smoother. There’s also a ton of online lessons and courses you could look into as well (I’m a big fan of Paul Franklin’s course), but you can’t beat sitting down with someone face to face every now and then too.
Welcome to the very small club of Australian pedal steel players!
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If it’s on the ground it can’t fall down. |
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