Copycat playing?

Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

Hey gang,

I've been doing some heavy thinking. At least heavy for me. I started out on the 6 string dobro and in the beginning I was copying Jerry Douglas note for note. And when I played in a band live, people in the audience would often holler JERRY DOUGLAS!!!!"
I liked it. For a while anyway.
But eventually that became annoying and I began to find other ways to play the instrument. I found it to be a struggle. To play in a way that excluded the Bluegrass vocabulary was difficult.
One way to escape the Douglas style and Bluegrass vocabulary was to escape into other genres.
But when I showed up in other places outside Bluegrass, I quickly found in Jazz, that Jazz has another vocabulary required that I needed to learn.
But here's the thing,
I didn't want to play somebody else's vocabulary. I was wanting to develop my own!
The reason I decided to go down a Jazz path was because of the chords that are used. Lots of chords used it lots of ways creates an opportunity to develop my own vocabulary or M.O. if you like.
I play over the chords, but I use very little of the "standard way of improvising". I purposely sprinkle a few standard procedure Jazz phrases into the recipe for context but really try to avoid sounding like a "Berkeley" graduate.
Ok sounds like a cool approach right?
And everything is fine and dandy until I try to present it to an audience.
That has problems. Too many to mention in this post.
It's like, nowadays, people have collected into groups.
I can play a Charlie Parker song to a group that likes Parker but gets rejected because I don't sound like Parker.
Or present it to a Jazz group. Well, I don't sound like Miles Davis. And so on and so forth.
I'd like to find a group who isn't into anything in particular. Good luck on the internet.
The way the music scene is here in Nashville, I could put a group together to play at small clubs. As has been suggested.
But I would be using different guys every time because of the professional job schedules of musicians here. We would be playing the Real Book every time.
If that's the case I may as well use random Jazz backing tracks off the Internet and play at home.
That's where I'm stuck at now.
If I want to really make some money, I could buy a 6 string dobro and go back to the Douglas-ish stuff.
But I'd rather worky my day job.
People say about me " he's just a frustrated cry baby" or "he's bitter"
I'm not bitter so much as disappointed.
Given my current trajectory I'll probably just die in obscurity. That would be fine by me.
Being a copycat is not iny DNA. But that will sure take a musician forward.
Just some random thoughts I guess.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Getting paid to play music as a member of a band or sideman carries certain responsibilities that usually include reining in our own personal choices and accepting a functional role (that often has been defined by another player). Even being hired as a recording session player sometimes comes with direction to get a certain kind of sound reminiscent of someone else. It's a beneficial learning experience to get all that stuff together. Ultimately it's all about serving the music in those situations. The most creative musicians figure out ways to incorporate slick ideas in ways that are sneaky.
That is some of my favorite stuff to hear.

But when music is not the only thing paying the bills, we have a little more freedom to do whatever the hell we want. This is where I am at. I did my time, now I am just playing to please myself. It's a continuous journey with lots of side roads and detours. I kind of feel like I'm now just a compilation of all of the things in music that have excited me since I was a child. I'm kind of reorganizing all of the music I've accumulated in my mind and transforming it into something that I want to hear and play. I can't be upset or bitter when people don't dig it--it's a labor of love and a selfish path.

Please continue to do what you do and keep finding ways to continue to connect with your inner voice.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

There's only one Jerry, Miles, Charlie, etc.

Be different and be Rich. Be original.

h

Reminds me of a time when after playing an _original_ dobro instrumental a guy says to me "That's not the way Mike played it."

I could only chuckle.

h

Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

So after I play a melody I have to make a choice at that point.
Do I copy a solo from a horn player of jazz guitarist?
Or do I take several licks from other jazz players and string them together? I don't really like either of these options.
After the melody I have things on my mind I want to play or that just come out of me that aren't taken directly from other players.
When I do that it's not what anyone is listening for. But I like it a lot.

https://youtu.be/pkbp4CDbMsw?si=IKf4RufHFO1XIf4U

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

Rich I am mostly a bass player, in the early 90s I joined a bluegrass group and started listening to Ray Deaton of 3rd time out. He is still my favorite bass player. I listened to him so much and learned a bunch of his licks. I could play my mediocre version of his licks just like him. Then one day I noticed I don't really copy his licks anymore, instead it sounds like me. Somewhere along the line they changed and it was not an intentional thing.

I say play like you play, no-one else can do that!

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Auldridge told me that he tried his hardest to sound like Josh Graves.

- and- He couldn't.

That's when he became "Mike Auldridge".

That sent me a powerful message.

Sure, he was a powerful influence on me and you can hear it it some of my phrasing, etc but, I have other influences as well.

With Mike's encouragement, I never looked back.

h
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Howard Parker

03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
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Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I realize this thread is in “Steel without pedals” but the subject, of course applies broadly to PSG and indeed to any instrument so I hope you don’t mind me adding a few thoughts here.
I think everybody starts out by trying to copy their heroes on their instrument. Often we shoot too high and we don’t yet have the chops to pull it off or, in many cases, especially if it’s jazz, to even really hear with understanding yet what they are playing and why it makes sense in the musical context. So I think we all start out basically “painting by numbers”. Nothing wrong with that in the earlier stages of one’s development. It’s probably even a necessary stage. With time, our understanding of the music grows, hopefully in parallel with our technique, so we can better understand not only what they’re playing, but why it works. And when you get to that stage, you can start to mix and match with other things that you know fit functionally in that same kind of spot. Now you have introduced a level of creativity to your soloing because it’s not the same thing that anyone else ever played before. All along the way, we are absorbing phrases, grammar, expressions and other elements of the musical style to add yet more variety, color, and nuance to our playing, much in the same way that we learned to speak our native language. (When we were first learning language, of course we copied our parents and others who spoke words that we were just learning. Some of them we used correctly and got positively reinforced for doing so (“Did you hear that? Little Jimmy just said “weewee“! )Some of them we misused accidentally (“I don’t think that word means what you think it means.” 🤣) but eventually, we sort it out and learn to speak the language fluently and are able to improvise our conversations on just about any topic. If we were immersed in the music as deeply as we are in our early language environment, we would all be fluent in at least one style. Our ability to express ourselves fully, however, would still be subject to our technical limitations so that needs to develop in parallel.

On a more personal note, I have had people compliment me on my “style” and even read one person posting that they are studying my “style”. Truly, I have never been aware of having any kind of “style” on steel guitar. There are certainly styles of music/genres that I enjoy playing, but I don’t think that’s what they meant. To me, my so-called “style” is just the result of all of the above steps that I mentioned, copying, developing an understanding, mixing and matching, interjecting new ideas that came from who-knows-where, but all filtered through my own technical limitations, and then smoothed out and refined with practice to sound as good as I can within those limitations. Like so many of us, I’ve been greatly influenced by Buddy Emmons and I know I have a lot of his ideas rattling around in my brain that might come out from time to time but “Son, you’re no Buddy Emmons“ so I don’t have the chops to pull off everything that I admire from his repertoire. In the end, I just try to be the best version of me that I can achieve at any point in time and hopefully keep pushing my personal boundary forward, both conceptually and technically, with each passing year.
This turned out to be a much longer post than I intended, and I apologize if it also turned out to be not so interesting or helpful.
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Samuel Phillippe · From: Douglas Michigan, USA

I was told when I first started playing to play the song not the style of the artist that recorded it.

I remember my first real gig (back in the 60's) I had a solo and didn't really know what I was doing. The lead guitarist said he really liked how I played. Been playing the same ever since.

Over the years you develop your own style forget copying. "MOST" people don't care if it is exactly like the original ot not

Sam

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I sent this link to my brother the jazz fan a short while ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyBa8ejDrsk&t=2s&pp=2AECkAIB

He said “no thanks, that’s a Chick Corea tune and I liked it just fine the way he did it.”

Now, my brother is a snob, to be sure. But this wasn’t about the style or genre of music, or even the quality of the undeniably brilliant playing. It was about the sound of the instruments. There is no way a banjo or dobro can be played to satisfy the keyboard/horn oriented jazz purist. All I could think of in response was the “Mama Don’t ‘Low” ditty. Bluegrass instruments MUST play bluegrass.

Quincy Jones may have not coined the phrase, but he was quoted “There’s music, and there is the Music Business.” Anyone who has engaged in both knows exactly what this means. I feel lucky to be at a point in life to be able to play whatever I want. If I can’t find other musicians who have something artful and interesting to add to a project, then hello Band In A Box. Likewise, if I can’t find an interested venue, I’ll play for my dog.

Rich, you are a fantastic musician. Play what you feel and what you hear in your head. You are fearless and daring. Your critics don’t know wtf they’re talking about and it’s their loss if they cut you loose.

Allan Revich · From: Victoria, BC

It has always seemed rather pointless to me to work really, really hard to sound like another artist. No matter how close you get, you’ll never be that artist. I can’t even imagine being in a tribute band. Seems absurd to me.

For anyone who has the luxury of not needing to play tunes for the masses to make a living, it makes more sense to play for yourself, whatever you want. Every genre finds an audience, if you’re not playing for the money, let your audience find you.

I play ukulele in a play-along sing-along club. I play blues harp and lap steel in blues bands. But my favourite thing is to play guitar and lap steel freely and extemporaneously. That way I don’t have to play anyone’s songs besides the “songs” that come out of me in the moment.
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Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)

https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database

Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

Thanks for y'all's input.

I think nowadays there is a lot of emphasis on virtuosity.
I don't want to go in that direction even if I could become a virtuoso which is a dubious proposition.
I'm searching for beauty and uniqueness. Searching for me.
This is kind of scary for me. I've always tried to hide behind hot licks and speed playing to create a fog so nobody can see the real me.
Because if I present my own musical self, I might be rejected. And then what?
I've always been uncomfortable around people unless they are close friends. But when I get on stage I'm comfy.
I guess I'm getting to an age where I just don't care what people think anymore. 😄

Tom Cooper · From: Orlando, Fl

Love your jazz dobro channel! Totally inspired me. I am trying to do same on 10 string lap, E13. Am using a loop pedal to do guitar and steel breaks. I try to get a general feel of someone I like, then try to do my version of it. Good luck with the jazz purists. I have been watching countless YouTube videos of them arguing about everything. Bluegrass, punk, pop, jazz. Seems they all fuss about something. I just play what I want at my one lonely wine bar gig and hope for the best. But yeah, I finally have time to sit down and work on jazz/swing type stuff again. Love it on non pedal steel. You make it sound so good on dobro, I may have to try that! So you slack one of the strings for 6th sound?

Nick Fryer · From: Ohio, USA

I’ll add two famous quotes to the conversation:

The great Clark Terry was known for saying about the process,

“Imitate first, then emulate, then innovate.”

And Picasso,

“Style is the difference between a circle and how you draw it”

I always keep these two masters in mind during my practice.

- NF
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Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

This is a very interesting discussion.

If I can just add my two cents, I would say that what really helps me break from the idiosyncratic vocabulary of any style or instrument is to compose my own music. That forces me to come up with my own vocabulary. When you’re playing Sleepwalk or Don’t Rock the Jukebox, it’s hard to break free from the original. If you compose instrumental music and want to avoid the cliches, avoiding the typical chord progressions will do the trick. You can’t play ii-V licks if there are no ii-Vs to play over!

It’s hard enough to learn the pedal steel, imagine not having the benefit of leaning on all the amazing ideas developed by players like Lloyd Green, Franklin, Emmons, etc. When I recorded my first instrumental pedal steel album, I didn’t want to play any the cliches associated with the instrument. Composing my own pieces took care of that for the most part. Writing a bunch of tunes in minor keys forced me to come up with my own ideas, and develop my own voice. It would have been much more difficult to stray from the typical stuff if I was playing on 1155 1151 shuffle.

Anyhow, this is a vast topic and I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the matter!

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

I have been listening to the Brisbane Bop stuff pretty obsessively and you can't not notice that Jimmie Rivers is pretty much playing Charlie Christian half the time. Literally note for note. It's like Charlie's solos are written on his soul. The other half is all Jimmie. He takes Charlie where Charlie would've gone had he been around to do it. I think everyone emulates their heroes. They teach us how to become ourselves.

David DeLoach · From: Tennessee, USA

Not sure why the jazz scene is so aloof.

Rich, I've heard your playing and you are a fantastic player.

Cheers to you for aiming to be a voice and not an echo. It's not a bad thing to transcribe other's work to learn new ideas and approaches. But to "sound like Charlie or Miles" is just one step in the musical food chain above being an Elvis impersonator.

One thing that really struck me when I read Miles' autobiography was his unshakable self confidence about his music, and him not really giving a rip what others thought about it.

The opportunities to play live jazz in Nashville are pretty slim. Rudy's, and maybe Arrington Vinyards when it's not too cold. I've played a lot of gigs at Rudy's (on guitar, not lap steel) and that place has a great vibe most nights. I'd encourage you to keep creating - if only online - and keep searching out kindred spirits here in town. I hate the rotating door of trying to create a band here - its like speed dating with a different group at each gig - and challenging to build the musical chemistry of a BAND.
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Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

I don't remember whether it's in the Winnie Winston book, or one of the Steel Guitarist magazines. But there was a paragraph I read about developing one's style. It went somewhat like this as best I remember:

"When I started out I played Chuck Berry licks on Chuck Berry songs, and _______ (another artist) licks on _____ songs. After a while I started playing Chuck Berry licks in _____ songs and vice versa, and eventually I was playing like - me!"

Seems to me that there are situations where you need to sound like the "original", especially if it's in a tribute show. But in other situations, if you are free to put your own touch on what you do, it can set you apart as having your own style and approach.

JMHO

PS - For the guy who walks up afterward and says "That's not how Mike plays it", just give him a big smile and say "Why, thank you!" as if he just gave you a big compliment. Because altho unintentional, in a way he did.
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Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

Rich Arnold · From: Tennessee, USA

Thanks for all your input.
I have a feeling that in general, many jazz players who hear me think, "well he's trying to play jazz but has obviously fallen short of learning the language of jazz improv"
They misunderstand what it is that I'm trying to do.
The only reason I use song from the jazz, is so that I can improvise over the chord changes. Not to try to sound like a jazz player.
I think if I wanted to sound like a jazz player, I'd be better off on a horn or keys.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Sounds pretty jazzy to me. Just because it’s accessible doesn’t mean it’s not jazz. Keep going, mister.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

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