I need help!

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

Hi, having lost my pro II about 2 years ago ( too sad for details) I finally got another steel , I could only afford a Carter starter that I bought through the forum last week. Apparently it had been altered and I was unaware of that. I think it’s what you pros call The Day setup, the A pedal only raises the 4th string. The B and C pedals do what my A and B pedals did on my old Sho-Bud.

Having learned everything from The Jeff Newman books and a few others which were all geared toward a standard E9 setup like all the books show, I want to put it back if that’s possible. With my steel upside down I see that the first cross shaft where A pedal hooks up only has one welded on crank all other shafts have 2. This Carter also has 4 knee levers each with 2 cranks.

Does anyone know if they came this way? My idea is to lose the 4th knee lever And use that cross shaft for the A pedal as it has 2 cranks on it that look to be in the right location for the A pedal to raise my B strings and then change B and C pedals to the way my Bud was. I would have to make a new rod as it only has one long enough to reach that crank but I think I can do that.

Is this doable, should I find some mechanic to do this? I know I’d have to ship it but would cause it only weighs 24 pounds,( no case). I'm incredibly bummed cause I just wanted to set it up and play after my 2 year absence of a steel. Any advice or comments would be helpful.

I am a regular guitar mechanic at a music store In Niagara Falls so not afraid to muck about a bit but worried I might be missing some knowledge some of you might have. I know it’s a beginner steel and will never be like my Bud but I just want to play and not learn a new method. Also if a mechanic sees this and wants to do it, I’ll ship it and pay cause I just want to play. Please help if you can . Thanks
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I'm looking at my photo files from C-S's I've had on my workbench.

The C pedal only has one bellcrank because you can hook the 4th & 5th string rods to the same crank.
So I am assuming that the person who converted yours from Emmons to Day exchanged the A & C cross shafts. I don't know what's involved with removing a shaft from the C-S so I can't advise as to degree of difficulty.

But conceptually, it ought to be a simple as that. Plus having the second pull rod long enough to go from A to the changer.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

re: removing cross shafts, first thing I'd investigate is whether loosening the collar that locks the shaft (on the side opposite where the pedal rods connect) allows you to slip the shaft in enough to come out of the hole on the rod-connection side. That would be wonderfully simple.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

Hi, thanks for the photo, I see your first cross shaft has 2 cranks , that’s what I needed to see. Are you a repairman? Do you do this work. I’m in Buffalo, and would gladly drive it to you as you are not far. If it was all set up and working like I want it I’d gladly hire a pro with experience to do it. If not thanks very much for that photo.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yes, I do steel repair work.

First off -- from the photo, can you confirm that it appears that the A & C pedal shafts have been exchanged? (red & green)
If it is that simple, then I am quite confident about doing this job. If not, the Starter is not simple -- the welded cranks limit one's options.

And re: driving....you understand that it's a 5 hour one way haul?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Isn't there a way to install an aftermarket bell crank on the round cross shaft without removing it? Split, or 2 pc. crank to put on the shaft? Or aren't there any parts made that way?

I bet Barry Coker can machine a part that will work that way depending on clearance and dimensions.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Looking at your photo Jon, I do see there is not a lot of space there. Just a thought though. Never had hands on a CS so I dunno what's involved with removing a shaft.

Good luck getting this sorted Bryan. I'll be watching to see how this shakes out.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

ah -- just found another photo from my files. Yes -- loosen the collar on the left, the shaft should slide thru & pop right out of the hole on the right. Eezy peezy.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

Mr. John Light was correct, seems the A and C cross shafts were switched. I did get them out but had to remove the piece that holds them in. It seemed like I would have mucked them to force them out by just loosening the bushing Allen screw. At this point, I’m going to tackle the rest in the morning. Still have to make a pull rod though but I think I can do that. Since I got it all apart I’m going to make the pedal rods a little longer to raise the whole thing up. I did that to my old Bud cause I’m 6’2” and the extra room was really great. I’ll post some more when I’m successful.
Thanks everyone for chipping in, I am still a member of the forum but haven’t really been here since I lost my Bud, it was too depressing! It’s really great to see it’s still the best guitar forum ever. Always a helpful person here and as I remember it, some real wizards too. Can’t wait to get a bar back in my hand it’s been two years!
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Larry Jamieson · From: Walton, NY USA

Bryan, I believe kevin Hatten is in the Buffalo area. He used to build steel guitars, and still builds and sells cases. If you get stuck, he might be able to help you repair your guitar. He is a Forum member.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Good to know the situation was resolved. Guess you learned a little something more about your guitar in the process too.

I don't know the circumstance surrounding the loss of your Bud, but I know the feeling and empathize with you.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Never worked on that breed of guitar.
But made several Day to Emmons or Emmons to Day changes.
It may take reversing levers also.

While moving cross rods, Will the knee levers cross rods need moved too?
If the knee levers lower and raise 4-8 you may want to reverse them too. While moving cross rods.
Before you start moving the pull rods.

Good Luck getting your new guitar setup, Happy Steelin.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

The saga of the Carter continues. After 2 weeks of mucking about and installing and reinstalling the cross shafts, I knew something just wasn’t right. I just couldn’t get it. I contacted Jon Light and he agreed to help. As a regular guitar repair guy I’ve always refused to be defeated and just kept going to make the instrument and the customer happy. Evertune bridges, Floyd Rose equipped guitars tuned down to C or something else crazy, shattered bridge plates in vintage Gibson acoustics, whatever , I just powered through. Well I was defeated on the Carter so I I shipped it to him and hoped for the best. Yesterday I got a photo from Jon showing me that the pedal rod pulls on the cross shafts were bent and twisted. How this could happen or whether it was done for some crazy reason is beyond me. Anyway after Jon warned me this could be a make or break issue as bending them back could break them and that would be that I told him to give it a shot.Figured I was out the 1000 bucks either way already. Well got a photo today from Jon and he did it! Yay! Hopefully the rest will go well and I’ll be steeling some time in the near future. So lucky to have The Forum and all you people helping this rock guitar player who just wants to play like Ralph Mooney get to my goal!
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K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I’m curious as to whether the knee levers needed to be changed, too. If I understand correctly you paid a grand for the Starter?
For future reference if the C-S just doesn’t work right for you, sell it and talk to Ron Anderson at Justice. His basic steels are a much better design that the Carters were and close in cost.
https://justicesteelguitars.com/justice-s10/
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Kevin -- this guitar has been massively altered. The deeper I get with it, the more I realize how much it has been hacked. Right knee reversing lever has been "re-engineered" (ahem...) and the only way it can fold up is to keep the screw & nut that holds it on super-loose so that it can wobble round other hardware....this I discovered after tightening up the loose nut and discovering that now the lever hits a bunch of other stuff.

The E lower has been moved (the whole cross shaft) from the factory setup of LKR to the RKL.

BUT, re: Day set up, the F lever is still on LKL. smh

I'll keep my comments to a minimum because this is Bryan's situation and it's not for me to sound off.

I'll be returning this guitar with a non-factory setup rather than take a chance of getting into unexpected weeds, trying to undo some of this stuff.

If I can get it playing well I will declare victory.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

It’s a can of worms for sure. I’m hoping Jon gets it as good as possible and that’s okay, As for selling it ,even though I bought it here on the forum, it was advertised as “beginner package” I wouldn’t feel right selling it to someone else if it is not how it should be. A real beginner would have been really messed up if they bought this guitar and more confused than I was. I’m going to make the best of it, and who knows , maybe it’ll be great in its weirdness and I’ll come up with some unique sounds !
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Just to be more specific, Bryan, the 'deviation' in the setup is quite acceptable. Just as Emmons vs Day pedals are accepted as equally good options, this is Emmons vs Sho-bud levers -- whether the E raises and lowers are on the same left knee or if they are split between the knees. This guitar now has the E lower on the right knee and while I disagree with anyone doing this to a Carter-Starter (because this guitar was built to be simple and, as the 'alterer' discovered, any messing with its simplicity comes at a cost of unintended consequences), split knees is common. Hell, I have it on all my steels. Paul Franklin has it.

My #1 mission is for this guitar to be solid & reliable. You can sell this setup to anyone. You can't sell a steel with levers about to fall off to anyone.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

Jon Lights mission with my steel was accomplished! Got it back yesterday and set it up this morning, sucker was almost in tune after shipping. Pretty cool, everything works great and the Knee lever deviation is no big deal.
I’d like to give a large shout out to Jon Light for repairing my steel, offering help when I was trying to do it myself and doing such an excellent job and also incredibly quickly . There are not a lot of steel players in Western New York, let alone repair people. Thanks to the forum I found Jon and we’re even in the same state.
I’ve never really played another steel except my old Bud and this is certainly different, it feels so small! Playing it after a two year absence from having a steel is another story. I was gigging and did some local recordings in years passed, this morning I felt like a caveman with a shiny hammer in my left hand and metal claws on my right! Definitely not like riding a bike. Luckily I’ve still been playing guitar a lot.
Looking forward to many hours of practice to get what minimal chops I had, back. Thanks everyone who joined in this post to help and thanks to the wonderful steel guitar forum .
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Thanks for the shout out, Bryan. Really glad the guitar arrived in good shape and that the E lower lever switch up isn't messing up your head. If you'd said 'no way -- I need it on my left' (which was factory setup) I'd have given it more consideration. But then I'd need to figure out just what on earth had been done to this guitar, as totally hacked as it had been, with parts moved from one side to the other and all..... My best option was to keep it as is, except I redid some things so that they met some sort of standard of having a chance of working instead of just being half-screwed in, half floating in some imaginary neverneverland.

Oh, and one thing I've learned -- if my steel playing feels like riding a bicycle, I'm probably laying in bed, legs twisted up in my sheets having a bad PBR dream.

Although I can't not think of bicycle-building-monster Ross Shafer and my Sierra and wonder if maybe I am riding a bike. Probably smashed into a tree.

Bryan Staddon · From: Buffalo,New York,

PBR my kind of beer, $9.99 12 pack at dollar general.
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