Tuning difficulties, E9 vs C6

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I came across yet another thread about tuning and intonation today, and it got me wondering - Is this a non-existent issue on C6? It seems that every post about tuning problems is in regard to E9. Is it the nature of the changes on C6 that make it more stable? Are C6 players better bar handlers? I don’t play C6, so I can’t speak to it.

My own limited thinking on it is that I want every E9 string to be able to function as a Root, fifth, third, and various extended chord tones at any given moment. I want them to be perfect in those functions, which is an impossible task. Thus, it registers as “problem”.

This is not meant to start another “how to tune and play in tune” thread. Just more of a quest for some general insight.

Dave Ristrim · From: Whites Creek, TN

Hey there Fred. E9 tuning has it's issues for sure. Especially thirds needing to be tuned slightly flat. It used to drive me crazy until I realized that when using a string that's flat as a root in another inversion, I just have the bar position slightly sharp to compensate. After doing this enough times it becomes second nature and i don't think about it while switching between inversions.
As far as C6, I think the voicings are more forgiving with those issues. Maybe? Does that make any sense?

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Hey Dave, glad you made it back home safe and sound. And I hope the hurricane has been merciful!

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I have finally trained my ear for not only adjusting the straight bar forward of the fret, but also at whatever slight angle is needed to compensate for intonation across wider grips. I was hypothesizing that C6 has some advantages in this regard.

John Larson · From: Pennsyltucky, USA

C6 is for jazz so there are no wrong notes.
Jokes aside I'd be interested in this.
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Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

C6 seems to tolerate equal temperament better, so perhaps many players just tune “straight up”?

We’re used to hearing complex, extended, jazzy chords played on ET instruments like the piano or archtop guitar. Even horn sections tend more toward ET.

I think of E9 as a string section, or a choir, where just intonation is possible. While I think of C6 as a piano, or a horn section, where equal temperament is more likely.

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Hope this is within the parameters of your topic Fred.

I try to make tuning easier so after I tune my front neck E's with pedals down, I tune the E's on my C neck to that... sumpn' gotta be the same... and all the other strings on that neck by ear.

What I end up with is the C notes being sharp to the E's and the G strings even sharper. I do not use a tuning chart so I don't know how the note frequencies shake out.

I guess this is some form of tempered tuning but sounding good with a band due to the 3rds being sharp to start.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I've often pondered this question:

Why, when we flatten our 3rds on E9, does C6th sound sweet tuned 'on the number' (and that includes the Es)?

I don't know the theoretical basis for this but my ears tell me that I don't need to tinker with the 3rds on the back neck.

I wish John Larson would come to my house with his 'There are no wrong notes' edict. Smile

My neighbors think differently!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

That is very interesting, Jerry. E9 logic tells us that tuning the major 3rds sharp to 440 puts you in no man’s land right from the start, but then you crank up your roots and fifths even farther. This is exactly the kind of thing I am curious about with C6.

What is it about the physical nature (not the musicality itself) of C6 that makes it so different from E9, and apparently more stable as pedal and lever changes are applied? Not wanting to go into deep physics here, but could it have something to do with the string gauges that the intervals require? Do the wider intervals between strings make a difference? Is it the way the tuning is actually played, the chord voicings, the note choices, the style of music?

Thanks for all the responses so far.
I guess I might have to just break down and turn one of my S12’s into a C6 and find some answers for myself instead of bugging everyone else about it 😎

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

B0b wrote an article extolling the virtues of using the Meantone system for tuning the C6 neck:

https://b0b.com/wp/articles/a-well-tempered-c6th/

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