Zum 4th String Problem

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Hi,

Recently I changed the strings on the E9 neck of my Zum and the 4th string won’t lower now. The E will be in tune, but no matter how much I adjust it on the lower to D# it won’t even get within 20 cents of being low enough. I tried backing off that nut, but it didn’t help. Any ideas?

Thanks, Jeff

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Okay a few things.
when looking at the changer and raising the fourth string with either the C pedal that raises it a whole step or the knee lever; does the lower return spring also go inward; is it moving also? if it is, it needs to be tightened; and or something is hanging up on the raise that is making the lower move.
or if none of that is going on and you're trying to lower the fourth string something's dragging something's hanging up and if nothing is dragging or hanging up there's a raise spring attached to the raise section at the body; unhook that Raise spring that will not hinder the lower at all and you might get there>> and then of course I can name four other possibilities but start with those.
Ricky
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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Is there a split tuning screw on that string? If so it might be cranked in too far, try backing it out a bit.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

while it is always possible something mechanical is going on, what gauge string did you take off and what gauge string did you put on ??

basics, back off all 4th string pulls, execute only the 4th string lower , what happens ?

In the BIG PICTURE , if there wasn't an issue before changing the string , now there is...well, go back to where you began. Maybe even a new 4th string "correct gauge "
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Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Thanks for the suggestions! My guitar is at work and I’ll be there shortly. I’ll try all suggestions and will report back. Thanks again!

-Jeff

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I would also suspect the split tuning screw. Back it out.. if there’s no split on the lower, no reason to engage it.

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Okay, the more I try and fix it the more I just make it worse. I tried backing out all of the pulls and ended up completely removing the outer part of one of those hex nuts that just came off the larger piece that is apparently supposed to have a screw that attaches the two. Now that inner screw is nowhere to be found…. I tried uploading a picture, but apparently that’s not going to happen….

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

With everything backed out I can tune the E. Then I slowly try and adjust the lower to D#, and it’s never nearly low enough before it starts actually lowering the open E.

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Is there a reliable tech for Zum’s who can give it a complete overhaul? I have no problem shipping it both ways and paying for the work. I just want to make sure it’s someone who knows those guitars inside and out.

Thanks, Jeff

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Check which hole at the changer the pull rod that is supposed to lower the E string goes through. The further away it is from the return spring the more chance there is for the nylon tuner to start acting as a pivot point that will start to engage the raise finger and cancel out the lowering of the string. This will be more likely to happen especially if the return spring is too tight/strong. You may need to have the pullrod going through hole closest to the return spring and then compensate at the cross-shaft where the other end of the pull rod is connected to get both 4th and 8th string to lower at the same rate.

From your description of the problem it could very well be not enough travel on the lever that lowers the E string. If the open string comes out flat after adjusting the nylon tuner to get the string down to Eb then you need more movement on that lever or move the pullrod to a spot further away from the cross-shaft.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Bruce Zumsteg · From: Harrisonville, Missouri, USA

Jeff, logic says that if the string lowered just fine before you changed it, and now it doesn't, it has to be the string gage. Tony was right on the mark. I've had several guitars brought in for the same issue, and the problem was that they had put an .011 gage on in place of an .014. The .011 tuned to the E note would not have enough tension to lower the 1/2 tone. Strings can be mis-packaged or mis-labeled, or it's possible that you just grabbed the wrong one. Pull rods don't magically jump from one hole to another in the changer or the bell-crank, and springs can't re-adjust all by themselves. The problem becomes more complicated very quickly when you start adjusting everything that turns. And you totally lost me regarding a two piece tuning nut with a screw attached ???? I suggest that you start from scratch by putting on a new .014 string, and tune in the nylon nut that lowers the E string, and see if it will tune to pitch. If you have tightened the lower return spring as suggested above, put it back to where it was. BZ

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

Bruce,

Thanks so much for jumping in. The tuning nuts on this guitar are actually two pieces. There’s one that’s about one inch long that you connect the nut driver to to turn it. That smaller piece connects to another plastic piece via a tiny internal screw. From there it travels under the guitar. While loosening one on the 4th string it came detached from the joining piece and the little internal screw that joined it to the longer rod disappeared. I took a picture of it but it won’t let me upload it. I’ll check the gauge discrepancy, but at this point I’ve already damaged the guitar while trying to fix it….

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I tip my hat and step back for Mr. Zumsteg.

Sounds like the plastic tuning nut was not a Tuning Nut, But 2 pieces of plastic electronic stand off, Screwed together with plastic threads to make a long enough (So-called Tuning Nut).

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jeff Valentine · From: Colorado Springs, USA

I'm sorry for the delay in responding to everyone, but I thank you all for your recommendations. I did eventually change the strings, and I do suspect that was the original issue. But in my attempt to fix it I caused problems that changing the strings won't fix... The "hex" plastic pieces that we tune have another smaller circular plastic piece that screws tightly on the metal rod before the "hex" pieces screw on, and I suspect that's to make those pieces easier to see and reach with the tuning wrench. I don't have that small circular piece to the rod, so after screwing on the "hex" piece it actually works, but it's tucked way back in there and isn't easy to see. We have a much older Zum that someone used as a "parts" guitar a very long time ago. I thought I could get one off that guitar, but the rods are slightly thinner on that guitar making them too small for this one. The guitar seems to at least work, but I'd like to get that "hex" plastic piece farther out so I can see it. I'll post a picture so you can see those smaller pieces.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

In the above picture, It looks like there is a round white spacer on some pull rods. On some rods it looks like someone has used pieces of hex material on some of the pull rods for spacers.

A piece of plastic hex will work as a spacer, But the hole in the hex must be large enough, So it slides on the pull rods, Making NO CONTACT with the rod threads. Then a piece of plastic hex nut with threads is screwed on the rod to do the actual adjusting tuning with.

If you have an extra piece of hex nut, Not being used. You could drill the threads out and use it as a spacer to solve your problem.

Good luck on this problem, Happy Steelin.

Danny Letz · From: Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540

I’m thinking someone has removed the set screw from a set collar & used it in place of a nylon or metal spacer. All there should be is a free to move spacer and a nylon hex tuning nut there. I get those nylon spacers at a hardware store. Of course, everything has to be a proper size.

Danny Letz · From: Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540

AND if that is a set collar, it may be too big I diameter (thick) & catch on the next finger although your description doesn’t indicate that.

Bruce Zumsteg · From: Harrisonville, Missouri, USA

Jeff, PM sent

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

The smaller round plastic in fron of the nylon tuners are just a spacer/collar with no threads that should easily slide on/off if the nylon tuners is backed out / removed.
I do have those spacers/collars on most of the pull-rods on my S12extE9 Zumsteel.

If previous owner has cut a nylon tuner to use as a spacer you need drill the original threads out if not already done.
I guess you could find aluminium spacer in correct size if you cant find nylon something for the spacer.

Are there two pullrods on the lowering finger for the 4th string ? It kinda looks so in the picture unless Im getting fooled by a G#-G lower on the 3rd string.

If there are two pull rods for the lowering finger on the 4th string where is the 2nd pull rod connected ?
C pedal or some other knee lever that drop 4th string E-D ?

A picture from underneath the guitar showing the pull rods would help a lot figuring out whats going on.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

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