Help with MSA Classic intonation and adjustments

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

I have an MSA Classic 12 string that I am having some issues with setting up, if anyone is able to shed some light on the situation that would be greatly appreciated! I have been playing for a few years, but my mechanical fixing ability is still fairly limited I mostly rely on trial and error Laughing

Suddenly this spring, after a few years of it working well, a few strings are no longer able to intonate correctly. Referring to the picture attached of the changer as seen from below, you can see that one of the fingers is out of line. This happens when I overtighten the the plastic nut at the end of the pull rod, it seems to "max out" how much the rod can pull without adjusting the tuning when the pedal is not engaged. (If the finger doesn't go back to the normal position, the string is sharp when played open).

In order to compensate for that, I gave the pedal more "pull" per se in order to be able to increase how much the string travels when the pedal is pressed.

However I ran into another problem in that when adjusting the set screw, I still don't have enough "pull" in order to get the note to the right pitch. This is especially a big problem because the pedals I am having the problems with are A and C relative to a standard E9 copedent. So the B string raises can't actually raise enough to quite get them to C#, and stay a little flat.

Does anyone know why this could be? Would it be an issue with the return springs? It is odd because it worked fine for a while and just suddenly became an issue about two months ago.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

You might have tightened the nylon tuners too much on a few pulls.. Looking at the changer it looks like a couple of those fingers are being pulled out,, they should be even with one another when at rest with no pressure on a lever or knee... If you ever want to take the drive down into NY state, I can have it up and running right for you in a jiffy, while you wait no problem.. Lots of experience on MSA Classic steels... Might want to back the nylons up first and see if those changer fingers move back where they should be.... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

also, the guide screw on the pedal pull tab seems to be in the center for some reason,, It has no business being there at rest... It should be at the bottom of that elongated slot until the pedal is pressed and then it would be at the top of that slot... Something looks off kilter there.. Guitar needs to be properly adjusted is all.. MSA Classics are virtually indestructable, and when they are messed up, its typically user error.. Seen it many times.. They have a lot of small adjustments, but once set, they are extremely reliable.. They DO have problem however,, Due to the way there are designed, the lever and pedal bellcranks CAN move around on the crossshafts if a pedal or lever is pressed too hard.. IF that has happened, you'll never get that guitar right if you don't know how to set the bellcranks up in relation the the cross shafts ,pedal and lever stops etc... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bob is right on with his comments. It also looks like you might have turned the stop screw the wrong way. (You need to back it out some to get more travel.)

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

If the guitar has tuned up proper and played proper, Then changed all at once. Check string size first, If string size has been changed, And not correct. Could be the problem.

If string size is wrong and you start moving things. When the proper diameter strings are put on the guitar, Everything you changed will have to be readjusted back for the proper strings.

Good Luck finding the problem, And an quick cure.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

With you not mentioning having problems with the B 9th or 10th string on a 12 string. Something happened to the pull on the 5th string alone.

If the 5th string is proper size.

On a MSA Classic, With the round cross rods, Check the A pedal bell crank, The Bell crank may have slipped on the shaft, And causing the problem. Check the set screw in the brass connector too. Once the A pedal is over tuned, the C pedal pull on string 5 will be out of tune and no adjustment will help.

Good Luck finding the problem and Happy Steelin.

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

Thanks for the helpful replies! The overtightening of the nylon tuners I was aware of, I just did a photo of them out of place to show what was happening when they were overtightened here they are back in neutral alignment:

I set to be as tight as it could be w/o bringing any of the fingers out of position

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

I think I was unclear about what the picture represented, this is Pedal A when the pedal is not pressed:

And this is Pedal with the pedal pressed all the way:

So that's the crux of the matter, It seems to me like it is currently "maxed out": tightening the pull rod would bring it out of neutral alignment at the changer, meanwhile the set screw is backed off so much that (at least to me) it seems it can't pull anymore?

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

Doing a quick check of the bell cranks, they don't seem to be in any different position than usual:

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

I checked the brass connector screws on the bell cranks too and they were all tight. One thing I was not totally sure of was what Bob meant by the pedal pull tab, is that this part?

(This is it when Pedal A is not pressed)

And this is it when Pedal A is pressed

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

So that in essence is the problem, seemingly unable to tune the B note to a C# on Strings 5 and 9, issue appearing both with Pedal A and C. (Guitar is in a U12 tuning)

I am thinking a good troubleshooting next step would be totally disengage the pull rods for those pedals, try resetting the bell cranks and make 100% sure that they are on properly, and then reassess.

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

And Bobby as per the string size, they haven't been changed in ages so I don't think that is the issue

Simon Posluns · From: Toronto, Canada

Ahah! I found it and it is 100% due to my own foolishness (as usual Laughing

)

I had tried a mod a little while ago to change the position of the pedals by extending the pedal rods:

I have now started to remove the extensions and the problem has been resolved. Basically the pedals were being blocked by not being able to extend fully when depressed* (also how I felt when realizing the error of my ways Laughing

)

Anyways, one small step for man, one less giant headache for me, thanks for all the responses! Who knew high quality therapy was available on the internet, and for such a great price!!!!

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Great to hear, The problem and cure was found.

Danny Letz · From: Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540

If you need the rod extenders, you also need a spacer between the leg adjusters & the pedal bar. I find that the same length pedal bar spacer as the rod extender doesn’t always put the pedals in the middle of their adjustment capability. Sometimes you have to experiment with the pedal bar spacer length to find the sweet spot.

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