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Topic: The Majestic G13th Tuning (Mr. Sandman) |
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 10 May 2024 2:00 pm |
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In my second video, a rendition of Mr. Sandman, I wanted to feature a relatively unheralded tuning that is not one of my main tunings but is still one I always end up messing around with and generally find fascinating 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni9RW2KWSUg
G13th (often called G11th)
E
C
A
F
D
B
It was used by Andy Iona, David Kelii, among others, and there are some amazing recordings by Lovey Lui Conn.
I am only using the top 6 strings.
I have tried it expanding it to 8 but I think it works best as a six string tuning… Would be interested to hear other opinions.
It is fairly unusual, and is one of my favorites for jazzy sounds and is a straight forward retune from B11th, C6th and many other tunings!
The bottom 5 strings of G13th are actually the same intervallically as the top 5 strings of B11th tuning, with an additional G# added on top.
G# E C# A F# D#
E C A F D B
This relationship to B11th and the presence of a 4th in the tuning likely why it is often called 11th even though TECHNICALLY it is a 13th tuning.
The tuning really is like a “mystical” B11th. Like all tunings it has drawbacks. There are a lot of pretty chords, but it really is lacking a lot of basic inversions!
This is how I conceptualize the tuning:
The top 4 strings are a major 7th ( 1 3 5 7)
The middle 4 are a minor 7th (1 b3 5 b7)
The bottom 4 are a 9th ( 3 5 b7 9)
The bottom 4 and the 1st string are a 13th (3 5 b7 9 x 13)
the bottom 3 are a diminished ( 1 b3 b5)
Plus the top 3 strings are the same as with C6th so any familiarity there transfers right over!
The presence of a full, straight major 7th chord in a tuning is fairly rare, so they really get your attention when you hear them!
In my video, I ripped off the intro from Jules Ah See’s solo on “Manuela Boy” from the 1959 Hawaiian Calls record “Hawaiian Strings”.
Jules probably played a Fender pedal steel on that record and got some pretty lush chords.
I have seen old posts from people who assumed he was using non-pedal G13th on that track, and I do not blame them because it fits on the tuning pretty well.
It is a little over the top with open string licks that are tricky to play cleanly, but I think the video is a decent demonstration of the kind of sounds you can coax from the tuning. I will tab out the steel part when I get time!
Does anyone else play this tuning? I’d be very interested to know what songs and tunes you think suit the tuning well 
Last edited by Joe A. Roberts on 11 May 2024 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 May 2024 5:59 pm Re: The Majestic G13th Tuning (Mr. Sandman)
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| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
G13th (often called G11th)
E
C
A
F
D
B
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is a straight forward retune from B11th, C6th and many other tunings!
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I appreciate your post, and will have to try that tuning soon.
It would be an easy retune from the old E7 tuning too. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 10 May 2024 9:31 pm
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Looks like it would make a cool 7 string tuning, adding the root (G) on string 7.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 11 May 2024 6:11 am
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I appreciate it David. That old E7th tuning is another underrated tuning... It was one of first widely adopted electric tunings for a reason!
I think Mapuana might have originally been written for G13th tuning, or at least it falls right on it.
Allan, that low G seems like a common sense addition but for some reason when I tried it, it didn't gel with me. Might have to give it another go
Here is the tab which should be mostly right.
You can see how I often play a G major 7th chord at the 2nd fret, and pulling of the first string to make it into a G6th chord.
Jules was probably doing this effect with a pedal, but Manuela Boy happened to be in G, so that major 7th to 6th sound can be had on this tuning with the open string!
Bringing Mr. Sandman down to G let me use that open E string in that song too.
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 May 2024 6:36 am
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| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
Here is the tab which should be mostly right.
You can see how I often play a G major 7th chord at the 2nd fret, and pulling of the first string to make it into a G6th chord.
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Thanks for posting the chart! I'll have some fun looking at it. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 11 May 2024 7:07 am
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I just remembered I wrote out the whole of Manuela Boy -
Aside from obviously being interpretive, the transcription was for my own use and I haven't double checked it.
But I remember it being a pretty good approximation if anyone wants to check it out 
I tried to find the track on youtube, but only found this upload, mistitled Manuela BAY with fairly awful sound quality (the actual record sounds great)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsrL9hQq0hM
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 21 May 2024 5:01 am
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Thanks, Joe. I've never really investigated this tuning before but I will now. There are a lot of nice musical colors available and you still have the first three familiar strings from C6th on top.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Alex Cattaneo
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 21 May 2024 5:13 am
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| What about putting a G at the bottom AND a G on top for an 8-string tuning? Then you get the traditional C6 on top and G7 on the bottom, like a variation on the A7/C6 tuning. |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 21 May 2024 11:16 am
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| Allan Revich wrote: |
| Looks like it would make a cool 7 string tuning, adding the root (G) on string 7. |
My thought as well...... |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 23 May 2024 10:41 am
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| Alex Cattaneo wrote: |
| What about putting a G at the bottom AND a G on top for an 8-string tuning? Then you get the traditional C6 on top and G7 on the bottom, like a variation on the A7/C6 tuning. |
Thanks everyone for the G string suggestions 
I just had a stunning (to me) epiphany…
If I take my E13th (Noel Boggs/Jules Ah See) neck and raise only the middle G# to A, I get:
E
C#
G# -> A
F#
D
B
G#
E
Which is intervallically equivalent, a minor third lower, to:
G
E
C
A
F
D
B
G
So instead of retuning 3 or 4 strings (depending on the tuning) to get a 6 string G13th, I only have to change one for a huskier 8 string version in E!
Since that was my fourth choice for a tuning, it makes me feel better about losing by a neck 
I am going to put a “Pitch-Key” on that G# string get to raise to A and back with just a twist of the wrist.
If only someone would invent something that could change the the pitch of steel guitar strings while playing…
maybe it could even be foot operated, can you imagine?  |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Jun 2024 4:57 am
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I would put this tuning in the category of C6 scordatura, or a modified tuning that deviates from a standard tuning, in this case C6. It's made a little more complex by the fact that 3 strings have to be retuned.
I've come up with a few scordatura of my own that I've used on recordings, my favorite being this one: C E G Ab C Eb--basically C/Ab.
I've used that one on quite few tunes, but I think I only recorded Stolen Moments with it.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 3 Jun 2024 10:56 am
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Andy thanks for that -- I too found that the tuning is really good for that 60s soul sound, I was messing around with "Smile Now Cry Later" and songs of that ilk...
—
Ironically, G13th is a closer, easier retune from the other c. 1939 tunings than C6th.
C6th requires retuning 2 strings a whole step, and one a half step.
But from these, it is only 3 strings a half step:
E C# A F# D# B - B11th
E C# G# E D B - "C#m7th"
E C# G# F# D B - E13th
E B G# E D B - E7th
...So it is easy to see how this tuning was stumbled upon from the very common E7th or C#m7th of the day.
It seems that G13th is just about as old as C6th. Same with D9th E C A F# E C. Maybe C6th is really a scordatura of D9th...
I think there was a "current" among top players starting around 1939 attracted to that minor triad on top,
Dick McIntire with some 7 or 8 string variation of:
G# E C# G# E A# F# F#9th
Andy Iona and David Kelii with:
E C A F D B G13th
Pua Almeida and Eddie Bush with:
E C A F# E C D9th
Tommy Castro, Jerry Byrd, possibly Freddie Tavares, Hal Aloma(?) with:
E C A G E C C6th or Am7th
C6th won out of course, probably due to its sheer versatility and inversions.
But on the right tune, those other tunings really take the cake for color...
---
I made a joke about pedals in an above post to get E C# A F# D G# B E and I found out some guy named "Bud Isaacs" must have stolen my idea in the interim 
| Code: |
Bud Isaacs Bigsby Copedent:
P1 P2
E
B C#
G# A
F#
D E
B C#
G# A
E
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I also saw a thread a day or two ago, with a scan of a T8 Bigsby copedent of some up-and-coming player named "Joaquin Murphey".
He also has a 13th tuning with a raise like that above to get that tuning... 
Be real, what is the chance these Joaquin and Bud characters stumbled upon the same things that I did?
Now I know how Jerry Byrd must have felt when those pro Hawaiian, established, and recorded players ripped off his C6th intellectual property from him in 1939.
Even before they likely knew he existed. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 3 Jun 2024 12:49 pm
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I love D9th for blues and it's such an easy tweak from C6th.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 4 Jun 2024 8:05 pm
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
| I love D9th for blues and it's such an easy tweak from C6th. |
I’ve been bouncing between D9 and D6 for a while now, mostly blues, on my 7-strings.
@Joe Roberts, you would not believe how many tunings I invented that up-and-comers stole from me before I was even born!
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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