7ths and 9ths

John Harmon · From: Virginia, USA

I am a little older so probably can't get into theory too much (don't have the time left) but can anyone easily explain what you do with 7ths, 9ths, etc. I know 6ths can be used for minors but that's as far as I have gotten. This was brought on by a set of e7 strings that I quickly changed to an e6. Thanks if you can shed a little light on this for me. John

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

Sure. 3rds and 7ths define the quality of the chord. If you play just the 7ths and 3rds of every chord in a progression, it will give you the movement of the progression. This does not happen with the root and the perfect fifth. The 9th simply adds color to the chord, it doesnt define the chord. As an example, if i play a major third and a major 7th, that defines a major seventh chord. If I play a major third and a flated seventh, that defines a dominant 7th chord. If i play a flatted 3rd and a flatted seventh, that defines a minor 7th chord. Adding a 9th to any of theses chords doesn’t change the chord type but adds some additional color to the chord. Hope that helps .

As far as 6ths go. If you make the 6th of a chord the root, it is minor. Example a c 6th chord is CEGA. If A is the root, it is now ACEG which is an A minor 7th chord
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

John, we start off with simple chords of three notes called triads, which are built directly from the scale by stacking every other note on top of each scale note. So if your scale is C D E F G A B, you would stack every other note, such as C E G, D F A, E G B, etc.

If you stacked a 4th note onto each chord in the same way, you are now dealing with 7th chords. It is either Maj7, min7, dominant 7 (just called 7 chord), and half-diminished 7. We can continue to stack notes in this manner all the way up to the 13.

What happens then is that the chords have a lot of color, and you can break the chords down into separate chords that relate to each other. For instance, why does Emin work when you are playing over a C major chord? It’s because in your stacked chord, Emin exists as one of the triads. Check it out:

C E G B D F A—this would be called CMaj13 (although the F would be excluded because it interferes with the major 3rd of the chord. And these are all the stacked thirds in the diatonic scale C. If you break it down, you have these triads:
C major
E minor
G major
B diminished
D minor.

There are other rules that come into play, but this is the thing that I discovered as a kid that made more eager to learn since it’s so interesting. It gets way more interesting when you start to look at other keys. For instance, the C major triad appears in 3 different keys, but its role is different in each. That is really what the meaning of mode is. In the key of F, the Cmajor triad with notes from the F scale stacked on it becomes C7, C9 and then C13. These are all dominant chords.
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John Keefe · From: New York City, USA

Hello John,

Welcome to a musical topic of infinite variety. It sounds as though you already have a grip on the big distinctions among chords - major and minor. Unfortunately non-pedal steel guitars are limited as to the complexity of chords they can play, for a given tuning and assuming slants that are not too heroic.

I too have recently decided to learn more fancy chords. I'm not a very advanced player, but I have four suggestions.

1. If you haven't already, try using three finger picks. This will enable you to play four notes at a time, and add some of the 6ths, 7ths, and 9ths you are looking for. Simply stated, these chords add a note or two to the top of chords we already know and make them more open, and in the case of the minor chords less minor-y.

2. Go to John Ely's Hawaiian Steel web site, in particular to the Chord Locator. (https://www.hawaiiansteel.com/chordlocator/generic.php) John has generously devised and shared this chord engine, where you can tell it what tuning you are using, and then ask it for how to play a particular chord. Because of the limitations of the non-pedal steel, many of the chords it offers are incomplete, but give the general chord sound you are looking for.

3. Pick a favorite song to start with, and find a sheet music version somewhere that has the extended chords you want to try. I picked Sleepwalk, as played by Brian Setzer, and it uses higher-order chords that are not too far out and demonstrate what these chords can achieve, against a simple chord progression. The 9ths and 11ths sound more open and lighter, and are generally more interesting. You don't need to read the music to see what chords they play.

4. Consider a music theory course on line. One that is pretty quick (and free), but still shows you the magic of all this stuff, is provided by Gracie Terzian, on YouTube (@GracieTerzian). There are 38 lessons of 15 or 20 minutes each, and you won't need them all, as some are about the piano or whatever. She presents it all pretty efficiently. Her lessons will provide a good structure for the theory ideas our learned colleagues Mike Neer and Bill McCloskey have expressed above.

Go for it -

John Keefe
New York City

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Allan Revich · From: Victoria, BC

Fred · From: Amesbury, MA

If your tuning includes the b7, 9 and 13(6) as in E13 you get a couple of new chords.

C#m7 C# E G# B
Bm B D F#
D6 D F# B (no fifth)
DM7 D F# C#(no fifth)
G#m7b5 G# B D F# (half diminished 7th)
Bb7#9 D G# C# (no root or 5, only 3, b7, #9)

And then there's slants...

John Harmon · From: Virginia, USA

Thank everyone for all the posts. I see I have a lot of studying to do here. I know you're never too old to learn, but it does get a bit harder with age. Thanks again, John

Lloyd Graves · From: New York, USA

Super interesting thread!

It seems like such a simple question, but, as pointed out by the answers, it could mean so many things: what a tuning is used for, how to use a tuning to add depth to what we play, etc.

Reminds me of the Circle of Fifths. At first I thought it just related to chord progressions in blues and rags, but now, after umpteen more realizations, I know it is SO much more, unlocking many aspects of music.

For what is worth, I've been working my way through the book, Edley's Music Theory for Practical People and have found that it has provided structure to things I already knew (which wasn't much), expanding and deepening that knowledge. It has put abstract ideas into a graspable form, both for music readers and non-readers. I'm looking forward to finishing it and then finding more sources.

One issue I have is that most everything I have found on theory is written by classical or jazz musicians and pushes last what I want to know. I need a theory class/book for people that want to understand old swing, early blues, jugband and rags.

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Mike Bonnice · From: Arizona, USA

I play Hawaiian music with a band, I'm not the lead player but play fills. The easiest trick to play the (dominant) seventh or the ninth chord is to slide into it on two strings.

For example, you can play G7 with the two tones D and F, and G9 with F and A. In C6 tuning the G major chord would be on the seventh fret. The G7 and G9 are on the fifth fret. Slide down two frets from G and end up at G7 or G9.
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Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

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