7th with 10th A pedal combination

Florent Guépin · From: France

Hi,
Since most of us probably tune the C# lower (A pedal on the B's) and the 7th & 1st normal (F#), the combination of the C# with the F# doesn't work.
My question is : Do you simply don't combinate them or is there a solution ?
If you can bring me some light in this subject, it would be very kind of you Smile

Thanks
Florent
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Hi everyone. I'm Florent from France. I play steel guitar for 6 years, trying to make my way through this wonderfull instrument. The first record that introduces me to pedal steel was J.J. Cale's "troubadour" with both Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons. And then Greg Leisz with Bill Frisell and i'm getting more and more "educated" about this instrument and i hope to go on that way. Anybody in France (close to Grenoble) looking for a steel guitar player can contact me, i would be pleased to join you.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yes -- you have discovered a very real thing.

A common solution that is used by many people, myself included, is to have an extra pull on the A pedal that lowers strings 7 and 1 just the little bit necessary to match the sweetened (flat) C#. It is sometimes called an intonation compensator or a tuning compensator or just compensators.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Sometimes the cabinet drop on E9 can help with this issue.
I tune F#s more or less as the middle point between the two extremes.
With pedals down, F#s drop about 5 cents for the better.
They are still a hair flat of ideal with pedals up, and a hair sharp of ideal with pedals down but I am aware of how the guitar behaves as such, and intonate accordingly.

Any tuning that has both a 6 and a 9 will present this conundrum, in essence.
You are basically making E6/9 or E13 with your C# pedal.
The D on top of C6 for example can be tuned with the 6th(A) or with 5th(G) of the tuning, or somewhere in between...

6ths want to sit flat. 9ths want to sit sharp....

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I have compensating pulls on the A and C pedals which lower string 7 slightly. These are easy to install on any steel.
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Florent Guépin · From: France

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yes. Exactly as if it were any other pedal pull.
Your emphasis in this installation will be to get the easiest and most minimal amount of pull. Ideally you don't want your foot to feel it at all as the compensator engages at the very end of the pedal movement but sometimes it can be noticeable and in fact it sometimes can be objectionable, messing up the feeling of a positive stop.

You want the rod in the bellcrank hole/slot closest to the cross shaft and the changer hole furthest from the changer-top/string.

As Andrew pointed out, it is the one time when cabinet drop can actually be your friend, doing some of the compensating for you.

Florent Guépin · From: France

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Ha. I try to avoid all tuning discussions because I am not even close to being as smart as a lot if other people on the subject. But....

Yes, you have introduced new, additional complexity. There is truth to the observation that " but 'Xxxxx Xxxxxx' didn't have compensators and he sounded in tune!" The ear and the bar are essential tools, always. The bar is not just a movable fret. It is also a tuning compensator.

There can be two different definitions on 'an in-tune PSG' -- 1) internally in tune (in tune with itself) and 2) in tune with the rest of the world. If we could actually achieve perfect Equal Temperament (straight-up on a tuner)
I think we'd still sweeten some intervals because that's what the ear wants to hear. But with other tuning issues of the PSG, there are added complications to achieving perfect ET.

What I have discovered: too much time spent in the woodshed and not enough time playing with real people can be hazardous to your health. A guitar that sounds really sweet at home can be difficult on the bandstand unless/until you learn to sound good blending with the other instruments.
The object of the intonation compensators -- to achieve beatless 4th and 5th with the B's F#s and C#s of E9 strings 1, 5, 7, & 10, pedals up, pedals down runs somewhat counter to the objectives of Equal Temperament which is a big compromise. To say that "the solution lies in xxxxxx....." is to open the door to the discussions that have occupied dozens and dozens of pages of Steel Guitar Forum. I've always run screaming from them which is why I don't know as much as I could.

I won't pretend that there is a single answer (as proven by those dozens of pages). Personally, I've worked toward learning to not obsess over some of the things that I hear at home. My career is NOT as a solo recitalist. I have compromised the F# compensators so that they do not flatten the string quite as much and I'm always experimenting with not sweetening the A pedal 5th/10th strings quite so much. These sorts of things are more consistent with the guitars & keyboards, regardless of how imperfect they seem in the intense listening environment of the practice studio.

Florent Guépin · From: France

Thanks very much Jon for your "light" Winking

I'll follow your wises advices.
_________________
Hi everyone. I'm Florent from France. I play steel guitar for 6 years, trying to make my way through this wonderfull instrument. The first record that introduces me to pedal steel was J.J. Cale's "troubadour" with both Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons. And then Greg Leisz with Bill Frisell and i'm getting more and more "educated" about this instrument and i hope to go on that way. Anybody in France (close to Grenoble) looking for a steel guitar player can contact me, i would be pleased to join you.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Jon

'Clarity of mind' is subjective; next to mine, yours is laser-like. Smile

This thread has provided the answer to one I just started earlier today: no responses to mine yet, but thanks to all for confirming my suspicions.

Compensators should be added to both the A and C pedals?
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Jon

I'm leaning towards just the 7th/A pedal comp.

My LeGrande seems to have almost no cabinet-drop, even after the counter-force was removed. (That might have been $285 I could have saved back in 2000.)

The 'new' JCH sounds better on E9, but is a bit touchy re: the 7th. That prompts me to ask for a comp on my impending Rittenberry.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Ah. I am reminded of the early days, about 1972ish, when I purchased a beautiful little Sho~Bud Maverick. 3 pedals / No knee-levers.

I had been playing guitar for a long time when this guitar became available.

Thankfully, the guitar came with a tuning guide. I had no idea how to tune it. (What's up with these first two strings????)

I got out my trusty little guitar tuner and tuned it up and started experimenting with those pedals. Ah, so that's what they do!!

I'll be sounding like Buddy Cage by the end of the week....

Then I had the head-on collision with those F# strings. I'm sure I tuned them correctly. Something sounds terrible.

Wait a minute.....maybe it's the A pedal that's out....darn tuner...bad batteries?

Around and around in a circle. No internet in those days. No other steel guitarists around.

I just knew that I had discovered something...

~Lee

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Then there was that other dumpster fire that was started when I "discovered" you could chime a 3rd.

Back in circles with the G#s and the C#s and the D#...

Sad

Frank Freniere · From: The First Coast

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

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