| Author |
Topic: 250k VS 500k pots in volume pedals |
Thomas Butler
From:
Robbinsdale, MN
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 8:38 am |
|
I have been using an Ernie Ball volume pedal and I am told they use a 250k pot - I am also told that Goodrich/Sho-Bud pedals use a 500k pot. Is there a difference between the 2? Would it be worthwhile to swap out the 250k pot in my Ernie Ball pedal?
Or am I being goofy?
_________________
LDG and a Twin Reverb - what more does a guy need? |
|
|
 |
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 8:54 am
|
|
Most, if not all, pedals for steel guitar application are 500K. I believe they tend to have a cleaner sound than the darker 250K. I'd guess that 90% of the guys here that have pot pedals would recommend the 500K. That's what I'm using too. Only way to know is try it for yourself.
IMO, the Ernie works just fine pedal for steel. The longer travel and sound taper can be your friend sometimes. If you're a tall guy though, it could be a little uncomfortable sometimes.
I have a friend who uses one of these and I have used it from time to time. I could get along with it just fine personally. Sound wise, you can compensate for the darker tone with your amps eq.
That's my opinion...
Another consideration is finding a good quality 500K pot to replace yours. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 9:09 am
|
|
If the VP comes first after the PU, a 500K pot will put less load on the PU than a 250K does, and you can usually hear the difference in that you'll get slightly more treble/harmonics out of the 500K pot than the other. The impedance of the first stage after the VP definitely also plays a role - the higher Z the better if you want free-sounding harmonics. For instance: the high-gain input on an NV-112 is approx. 220K, which is a tiny bit on the low side, IMO.
If you use some form of matchbox or active stage between PU and VP, the pot-value doesn't matter as load. Then a smaller VP pot-value may often result in less effect from environmental hum and noise by keeping the impedance down on the cables leading to the stage following the VP.
I use what amounts to a matchbox between PU and VP, 1M in / 3K out, in which case the VP pot-value doesn't matter as load. I also normally use a similar active high-Z in / low-Z out stage right after the VP, so the steel-amp's input impedance doesn't matter either. Active VPs work this way. |
|
|
|
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 9:12 am
|
|
Use the 500k pot!! I had been using a Goodrich pedal that had a 250k pot in it (which is not standard). I thought the sound I was getting was pretty good. But then just this month the old 250k pot gave out and I had to pull out my old Emmons pedal that has a Dunlop pot (about 470k) that I got from Tom Bradshaw. I had not been using the Emmons pedal because I prefer the longer throw of the Goodrich pedal. As soon as I started playing using the Emmons pedal, I instantly noticed a marked improvement in the sound of the guitar (with the Dunlop pot). The best way I can describe it is the guitar sounds richer with a more pleasing mid-range. Get one of Tom Bradshaw's pots!!
Paul |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 9:34 am
|
|
If you run a wire directly from the steel to the volume pedal, you'll hear a big difference in tone between the two pots. Switch to a 500K (or Tom's 470K) and it will be like taking a blanket off of your speaker cabinet.
Maybe 250K pots work for guitar, but they sure don't work for steel.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 10:28 am
|
|
In general, I think Georg is on the money, IMO. But I first have to ask - do you like the tone you have with the 250K pot or would you like more high-end?
Playing clean pedal steel with the volume pedal first-in-line after the steel in the signal chain, I much prefer a 500K pot for the reasons already mentioned. Most pedal steel pickups are wound with a pretty high impedance, and if the ratio between the pedal impedance (resistance) and pickup impedance is not high, you will tend to lose high end.
As Georg says, though - if the output of your steel goes directly into a high-input-impedance, low-output-impedance buffer, neither of these VP pot resistances will load the signal down.
The flipside is that I sometimes find I prefer going directly into my old EB 250K when going for a less clean, more midrangey blues type of sound - I tend not to like the typical level of brilliance going into a more distorted amp.
Similarly, playing clean pedal steel, I prefer low-capacitance cables like George L's. But that can be too bright for guitar or for less clean sounds on steel - to me, anyway. Jimi Hendrix used those extremely high-capacitance coiled cords, and seemed to make it work for what he was doing. |
|
|
|
Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 10:55 am
|
|
Before you try replacing the pot in your pedal or spending big bucks on a new pedal, try putting a good buffer between your guitar and the volume pedal. A Boss pedal will work, though I prefer the buffers in the Tech21 products by far. I've used a Bad Monkey before with good results as well.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 2:27 pm
|
|
Find someone with an ohmmeter (or buy one for about $10-$15), and you can check pot values, batteries, cords, as well as speaker and pickup resistance values. Really a handy little device.
Every player should have one, and know how to use it.
A 500k pot will normally sound better, but a 250k works okay for some players, depending on the amp and pickup used. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 3:09 pm
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
In general, I think Georg is on the money, IMO. But I first have to ask - do you like the tone you have with the 250K pot or would you like more high-end?
Playing clean pedal steel with the volume pedal first-in-line after the steel in the signal chain, I much prefer a 500K pot for the reasons already mentioned. Most pedal steel pickups are wound with a pretty high impedance, and if the ratio between the pedal impedance (resistance) and pickup impedance is not high, you will tend to lose high end.
As Georg says, though - if the output of your steel goes directly into a high-input-impedance, low-output-impedance buffer, neither of these VP pot resistances will load the signal down.
The flipside is that I sometimes find I prefer going directly into my old EB 250K when going for a less clean, more midrangey blues type of sound - I tend not to like the typical level of brilliance going into a more distorted amp.
Similarly, playing clean pedal steel, I prefer low-capacitance cables like George L's. But that can be too bright for guitar or for less clean sounds on steel - to me, anyway. Jimi Hendrix used those extremely high-capacitance coiled cords, and seemed to make it work for what he was doing. |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Find someone with an ohmmeter (or buy one for about $10-$15), and you can check pot values, batteries, cords, as well as speaker and pickup resistance values. Really a handy little device.
Every player should have one, and know how to use it.
A 500k pot will normally sound better, but a 250k works okay for some players, depending on the amp and pickup used. |
They're just kidding! Forget about all that and just practice more. Right, Dave and Donny?  |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 6:05 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| They're just kidding! Forget about all that and just practice more. Right, Dave and Donny? |
By all means - practice more. But if you prefer a 500K pot - I think they're about $25 and a little time to install it. Actually, I got some real nice ones from Paul Franklin Sr. for less than that.
Or maybe you'd like to suggest that he should get a different guitar, to improve his 'inherent tone' - then it won't matter what kind of pedal, cables, or amp is uses, right? 
Seriously - I think simple electronic changes can sometimes make a big change for practically no dough. |
|
|
|
Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2009 7:52 pm
|
|
OK heres my 2 cents.For the past two years I've been working on an onboard VP. To make it work I needed a very short throw pot. I couldn't anything in a 500k
but did find a 250k from Rockinger in Germany.Its off and on within a quarter turn. When testing it I checked the sound direct and with the pot turned up all the way. I couldn't tell any difference in volume or tonal loss. Only when I turn it down do I notice a small loss in the highs, but I can live with it. I have it wired between the pickup and the output jack. I'm not very sharp about electronics and always enjoy these kind of threads
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
|
|
|
Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 28 Oct 2009 1:50 pm
|
|
Get any old Ibanez pedal and put in between your guitar and v pedal, the buffer works very well and pretty much negates the value of the pot. JP
_________________
Carter,PV,Fender |
|
|
|
Jim Cinney
From:
Tehachapi California, USA
|
Posted 28 Oct 2009 3:04 pm
|
|
Hello Thomas,
I also have an Ernie Ball 250k pot vol pedal that I use.I dont know what type of amp you are using.I am using a NV-112.I run my guitar straight to the input of the amp and use 2 cables and run the volume pedal in the effects loop(send & return).I notice no change in tone or loss of the highs.If you like the pedal you might want to try running in an effects loop.Just a thought. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 28 Oct 2009 5:54 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| If you like the pedal you might want to try running in an effects loop. |
Good point, Jim - if the amp has an effects loop, none of these volume pedal pots will load down the signal coming out of the effects send. |
|
|
|
Thomas Butler
From:
Robbinsdale, MN
|
Posted 29 Oct 2009 2:23 pm
|
|
Thanks!
I am a little surprised though. I thought the guitar went straight to the volume pedal. I've decided to get another EB pedal and put a 500k pot in it.
So much to learn.
My amp right now is either an early Ampeg VT-40 or an original Fender Blues DeVille - both are 4x10 cabinets and both have killer reverb.
Reading through the entries on this forum I think I'm saving up for a pre-master volume Twin Reverb.
_________________
LDG and a Twin Reverb - what more does a guy need? |
|
|
|
Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
|
Posted 21 Aug 2015 2:22 pm 500k pot?
|
|
Resurrecting an old thread...
So Thomas, did you ever put in that 500k pot into a second EB Volume pedal? I have a bad 250k pot in my EB (I use this one for lap steel into over driven amp). I have a Dunlop 470k 'hotz potz' I was going to put in there, but I'm thinking keeping it at 250k might be the way to go. I do like the slightly darker tone for lap steel. Then again, I've used my Goodrich with a Dunlop replacement pot, and it sounds good, too. Hmmmmm... |
|
|
|
David Black
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 16 Dec 2023 6:04 pm
|
|
I have a problem with my EB not opening up (to full volume). The travel (pedal all the way down) with a new 500K POT) will only turn the POT about half way. Strings and spring have been replaced with new ones. It APPEARS that the pulley on the POT ought to be smaller so that when the pedal is fully down (full volume) the rotation would be all the way. Has anyone else had this same trouble and if so, what did you do to correct it? Thanks in advance!
_________________
Sho-Bud Professional, Sho-Bud Pro II, GFI Ultra (SD-10), Fessenden (SD-10), 2 Session 500's, 1 Session 400, 1 Fender Frontman 25R. |
|
|
|
Bill A. Moore
From:
Silver City, New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 6:55 am
|
|
| When I replace a pot or string, I move the shaft until "down" is full throw. |
|
|
|
David Black
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 7:51 am
|
|
Problem with doing that is that "full up" doesn't cut the volume completely off.
_________________
Sho-Bud Professional, Sho-Bud Pro II, GFI Ultra (SD-10), Fessenden (SD-10), 2 Session 500's, 1 Session 400, 1 Fender Frontman 25R. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 8:43 am
|
|
| David Black wrote: |
| Problem with doing that is that "full up" doesn't cut the volume completely off. |
Many, including me (been doing it for decades), set their volume pedal to not shut off completely to give more volume at the down position. The volume level at full up is pretty negligible. If it's a pot pedal, make sure full down on the Pedal doesn't let the wiper in the pot hit the end of the travel inside the pot. It could damage the pot.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
David Black
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 9:08 am
|
|
I'm the same way (been playing for a lot of years). Oddly enough I DO have other volume pedals and they all can go from "Fully off" to "Fully on". The pedal I'm referring to is an Ernie Ball. It's one of the originals with the input/output jacks on the side of the pedal (as opposed to being on the front). I prefer this pedal for that reason since the connecting cables are to the right which allows the pedal to be closer to the pedal rack. I've tried to get in contact with the Ernie Ball folks about this problem with no luck so I'll keep doing some experimenting, maybe try fabricating a smaller diameter pulley to correct this problem. I APPRECIATE everyone's input!!
_________________
Sho-Bud Professional, Sho-Bud Pro II, GFI Ultra (SD-10), Fessenden (SD-10), 2 Session 500's, 1 Session 400, 1 Fender Frontman 25R. |
|
|
|
Bill A. Moore
From:
Silver City, New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 10:03 am
|
|
I have the same side mounted jacks EB pedal, although years ago I installed a 500K pot. I never tried to see if the volume was "full off" when up.
Mine has another pot on the side, I think for minimum volume? |
|
|
|
Bob Sigafoos
From:
San Clemente, Calif. , U.S.
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 11:18 am Ernie Ball
|
|
| Quote: |
| Problem with doing that is that "full up" doesn't cut the volume completely off. |
Yeah David that is my experience too. I think you could machine that sleeve that goes on the 500K pot to have a slightly reduced diameter. Seems like you might have to be pretty accurate with the diameter. So if you don't have a lathe forget it. I set the string and sleeve alignment to go to maybe 95% full on. Remember you don't want the pot shaft to bottom out and make the hard stop. Let the little bumper button do that. That said, the pedal still has a small bit of volume when full off. So I've learned to live with it.
Last edited by Bob Sigafoos on 17 Dec 2023 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
David Black
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 11:32 am
|
|
The extra POT on your pedal MIGHT be a tone control. Here's a schematic I made of how that would wire if yours IS a tone control or if you want to add one to your pedal:
_________________
Sho-Bud Professional, Sho-Bud Pro II, GFI Ultra (SD-10), Fessenden (SD-10), 2 Session 500's, 1 Session 400, 1 Fender Frontman 25R. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 17 Dec 2023 5:51 pm
|
|
| David, I think your schematic is incomplete. The way you show it now, the 2nd pot is just acting as a fixed resistor. That will lower the volume and the dampen the tone, but there won't be any way to adjust it. |
|
|
|
