Suggestions on simplified copedent

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Hello, Im not sure if this should be in the general forum or the builders corner so please let me know if Im in the wrong spot. I was hoping to get some feedback on a custom copedent I was thinking of implementing. I have a homemade S10 with the regular E9 copedent (that Im not very good at) but wanted to come up with something simpler I could build into a lightweight pedal steel or even a lapsteel w/ flexible cables. Below is what I came up with:(edited per Fred's correction)

So 8 strings with 3 pedals and 1 toggle change I can either leave on or off. It only has 1 raise per string and no lowers so the changer mechanism could be dirt simple (like a palm bender). A and B pedals have similar changes to the standard E9 so I think a lot of the regular licks would translate. With the toggle change engaged I can get pretty much all the triads based off E major and most of the extended 7th chords without moving the bar. With the toggle change disengaged strings 8-3 are the same as a standard 6 string Dobro, so I could play that style as well.

All seems good on paper but I wanted some feedback from more experienced folks to see if there's anything that stands out as awkward or missing.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

That looks better, Carl 😎

Set up ABC pedals like a normal E9. Then, if you don’t want the complication of lowers on your changer, at least think about adding an E>F lever. This way, a lot of standard E9 learning materials would still apply to your guitar. I don’t think the toggle for G#>A on string 7 is a good idea. You can imply a 4-note Amaj7 with a C#m triad.

You are trying to reinvent what is already a pretty good wheel. I suppose you have your reasons. Good luck!

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Ah good catch, updated below:

I was back and forth on whether or not I needed to drop it a step for the string tension and got it mixed up. What range of tensions do yall tend to stick to for best tone vs not snapping strings every 5 minutes? In E with a 25in scale this ones falling between 26 and 36 lbf.

Regarding the pedals I was also considering either 2 regular pedals and a knee lever for C or put a little u shape pedal that bridges over B to lets me push down on just A/C for that V7 chord

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

For string tension on E9, this article is probably all you need:

https://b0b.com/wp/articles/e9th-gauges/

For the pedals and levers, I'd be very tempted to remove the C pedal and put in raise/lower levers for the Es. A & B pedals with E->Eb, E->F on levers is about as streamlined as I'd personally want to get. That setup gives you most of the diatonic 7ths in home position, but also much of what you need when not in home position. With this minimal setup I'd then put the C on a knee if I were to add it back in.

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

I appreciate the feedback and could see the E to Eb drop being handy but raises and lowers on the same string would make the changer design considerably more complicated than a single raise and since I have access to Eb on the next higher string I’m not sure how much versatility it’d buy me.

My inexperience may be showing but what exactly is a E to F raise lever useful for? It’s out of the Emaj diatonic but I guess it’d get you a C#maj instead of min, anything else?

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Uses of E->F:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2639566&sid=18b8c4655c047e3c0f8d4699dae388ba

You've listed the chords that are available, and you have a great list for 8 strings. However it is important to remember that much of the sound of pedal steel that we all love is from uninterrupted movements up and down the neck. I understand the impulse to want to have a complete set of diatonic 7th chords at the home position, but you also want a set of changes that allows you to move smoothly through positions. Otherwise you will end up leaving your bar in the home position and just pressing pedals and knees. There's nothing wrong with that but there's much more available.

It is extremely useful to be able to change the E strings up or down a half step whenever you are moving up and down the neck. Here are some harmonized scales:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=180409&sid=4874d31364c2a48cf6a144061e95be85

You can see that A, B, and E Raise and Lower are all over the place. There are lots and lots of tabs you can't play without them. On the high E you can get away without the lower by switching back and forth between the D# and E strings as you move, but it is a different sound because you have to pick and block every string switch.

Anyway it looks like a fun project. It doesn't have to be able to do everything.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Here are a few simple ideas
https://youtu.be/5_WJgU3VuHg?feature=shared
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Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Thanks! That makes a lot more sense, though it adds many more things to consider. I dont see a good way to get a E-Eb with a simple changer design but the E-F raise I could do. If I have the E-F# raise on a knee lever (which is probably better anyway) I can just put a half stop on the raise to get the E-F change.

Fred, making new wheels is half the fun Smile

and I feel like figuring it out from scratch helps me understand it better (not that it'll make my fingers and toes cooperate). The toggle probably isnt really necessary, I could just do the A-G# drop with the tuning machine if I feel inclined to play some dobro stuff.

Updated below:

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

I would love to see pictures of your guitars, you should definitely post over in the builders forum about those. I was able to rig up my pull-release to raise and lower.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=385478&highlight=

As far as copedants go. I scribbled down different theoretical 8 string tunings for over a year while I was building my 8 string guitar. I have a whole notebook full. Mostly I was trying to combine an old school E9 with a 6th tuning. In the end I scrapped the E9 influence and designed it around A6 and C6 cause I want to play mostly jazz. I think it really depends on what you want to sound like or who your influence are. Don't let anyone talk you out of trying your own thing. That said, it is hard to deny the fact that there is good instructional material for E9 and C6 tunings.

If I were to go back to an E based tuning, I really like the idea of this one. It is an Esus9 chord. You have A and B pedals like normal and with both down you have a full A6. The E notes are the tricky ones as far as the changer goes. If it is a simple type, you have some choices here. If you lower the the middle E to D you basically have my other favorite non pedal tuning E13. If you could finagle both Es lowered to D# you have a B6 with a 3 on top. Then you have your second and third inversions of the 6th chord. This tuning is the lower 8 of the Universal E9/B6 10 string. It is also basically Bud Isaacs copedant with a more modern pedal setup.

E-F-D#
B-C#
G#-A
F#
E-D-D#
B-C#
G#-A
E

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Carl I think your updated copedent looks really good. The half stop solves a lot of problems and now you basically have a C pedal and your F lever on the same lever. Combined with using the D# string instead of a lower I think you'd be able to adapt a great deal of teaching material to that setup. And I agree that tuning back and forth is a good solution to get to the dobro stuff.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The suspended chord is an unusual default tuning. I think I would be very frustrated with string 7 stuck on A. Or stuck on anything. This may be another case of me not really understanding what you’re after. You appear to be concerned with having all major key diatonic chords, including major and minor 7ths here and there, available to you at one fret. I’m a big fan, too. But I also want them available in high and low ranges.

The F# lever with a half stop is very interesting. I hope you are on to something with that. Some players don’t like half stops on levers, but I believe it is a tool worthy of the skill it takes to master it. I have been lusting for a half-step split on my C pedal ever since I started playing. Unfortunately, my changer is full of other stuff I use all the time.

In case anybody is wondering, I’m only offering an opinion which was solicited in the OP. I am in no way suggesting for Carl to take my way or the highway. He appears quite capable of thinking and speaking for himself.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

There was a time in the history of the pedal steel when the ABC pedals had been joined by the first lever, which lowered 8 and 2. (My first steel was like that, and in the past much great music was made that way.)

If you seek a simple copedant, look no further.
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Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Hi all, thanks again for all the feedback! Definitely looking better than where I started.

Fred, I didn’t take it that way and am appreciative of the discussion. I guess what I’m after is what is the most useful copedent I can get using a primitive lever based changer (preferably just single raises, or single lowers with a return spring if absolutely necessary). I don’t expect it’ll be as flexible as a modern psg with triple raises/lowers and tunable splits but that’s ok.

I want a primitive changer mainly so I can make everything myself with basic shop tools. It would also be nice if I can make it compact/lightweight enough to include even on a lap steel or maybe an acoustic box (most of the other instruments I make are acoustic). I already have a couple designs in the back of my mind but it doesn’t matter if I can’t get a useful setup planned out for it.

Ian, is that a lower on the 8&2 of a regular 10 string E9? I need to think through what options that change would open up

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The guitar I describe was a simple pull-release E9, very simple to construct.

It had the option of lowering any string that wasn't being raised, i.e. not 3,4,5,6 or 10. Lowering 8 is clearly useful. Lowering 2 to D gives you a scale note with A and B depressed ("pedals down" for short). You don't use both at once.

Rather than thinking about what chords are available across all the strings, think about what movement is available in different areas of the guitar. Chords are not a big part of steel playing. For instance, the C pedal was not invented to play F#m, but to lower 3 or 6 by engaging it and sliding back two frets - on the pull-release you can't lower 3 or 6 directly because they already have the B pedal raise.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

Thanks! I can definitely see the cabinet drop being excessive with a traditional soundboard or resonator cone since they’re designed to be flexible but I have some ideas on workarounds I’ll post on your thread when I have a chance.

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