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Topic: Best way to wire a piezo on a resonator? |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2023 11:27 am |
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This may be more appropriate over in electronics, but I know a bunch of people here have great insight into this subject.
I have read up on this a bit, but I can't really find a consensus. I see a number of possibilities, different styles of piezos etc. I am not interested in the Jerry Douglas system for this. My final goal is a dual pickup using a blend knob with a single coil and a piezo. I don't want to reproduce the Dobro sound necessarily, I want to add bit more natural resonance to the lap steel sound. And be able to experiment with both pickups separately. The diagram in this article looks like it might work only with a piezo in the bridge position. I don't want 2 volumes. I am open to any ideas on wiring a blend setup.
https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/the-two-pickup-esquire-wiring
I am not that concerned with using high quality top of the line stuff for this. It is just an experiment really. I am winding the single coil pickup myself. Not playing the Opry any time soon! I see many cheap options on CB Gitty and Amazon. I see single discs, triple discs etc. but this one seems promising. This is for an 8 string guitar and the piezo is 2 7/8" long. https://www.cbgitty.com/cigar-box-guitar-parts/piezo-cable-acoustic-instrument-pickup/ |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 3 Nov 2023 12:40 pm
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I would suspect that Piezo will not work well without a preamp, particularly when blended with a magnetic pickup.
When I built my Quasi acoustic Telecaster with a rope type piezo bridge, I fitted a cheap acoustic preamp and then fed it to a 5 way blade switch to combine it with the magnetic pickups.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2023 1:29 pm
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| I would be running it through an preamp pedal, but Including an active onboard preamp is not a bad idea. I found many people saying piezos don't work well without a preamp, and many people claiming they can be made to work just fine. All claim to be authorities on the matter. I guess it might be the quality of the piezo and the wiring as well as the amp that makes all the difference. I would like to keep it as simple as possible. Matching the outputs of the 2 pickups would most likely require a preamp I guess hmmm. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Nov 2023 1:48 pm
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You should look into the old Parker Fly for info about this. Ken had a piezo mixed with regular guitar pickups and a blend control. I am sure there is plenty of online discussion about it.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 3 Nov 2023 8:55 pm
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| I would be running it through an preamp pedal, but Including an active onboard preamp is not a bad idea. I found many people saying piezos don't work well without a preamp, and many people claiming they can be made to work just fine. All claim to be authorities on the matter. I guess it might be the quality of the piezo and the wiring as well as the amp that makes all the difference. I would like to keep it as simple as possible. Matching the outputs of the 2 pickups would most likely require a preamp I guess hmmm. |
I use K&K disc type Piezos in my acoustic Guitars and they are fine direct to amp, But undersaddle ones in my Ukuleles and they need a large boost when run directly into my PA.
What are you running it into? You could just use a stereo output jack and mix and eq pickups at a mixer. This would probably give you better quality than trying to mix passive pickups onboard.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 4:53 am
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The thing about piezo cable is that it relies on pressure, so it would probably need to go in the bottom of the insert slot, and in a spider bridge, you’ve got the screw to deal with.
Since the Fishman uses a piezo embedded in the bridge inserts, I’ve been wondering about using a couple of small piezo discs stuck on the spider, right on the ledge where the inserts are fitted. Has anyone tried this?
I remember years ago, someone here on the forum super glued a pair of under saddle pickups (they were hard, not the cable style) to the sides of the inserts and said he got good results.
In general, I think you’d want a preamp for impedance matching as well as gett8ng enough gain.
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Peter
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www.splinterville.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@splinterville6278/videos |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 5:59 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| You should look into the old Parker Fly for info about this. Ken had a piezo mixed with regular guitar pickups and a blend control. I am sure there is plenty of online discussion about it. |
I had never heard of those before. Very unique, forward thinking design. I found many discussions but can't seem to find many wiring diagrams.
National seems to have had a few guitars in the past and some new ones using this idea, there are some sound clips which I really like. The Resoolectric Revolver is very interesting, I would like to find a wiring diagram for one of these. He mentions it is an active circuit. Can run them separate or blend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ul9ZEFWoF0&t=152s
I am surprised there hasn't been more done with this idea. Some very dynamic tones seem possible. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 6:03 am
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| Jeff Highland wrote: |
What are you running it into? You could just use a stereo output jack and mix and eq pickups at a mixer. This would probably give you better quality than trying to mix passive pickups onboard. |
I have a couple options for amps Tweed Deluxe and Princeton clones and my current favorite for steel guitar is a homemade class D 60 W amp with a simple Tone-Volume preamp. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 6:07 am
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| Peter Jacobs wrote: |
The thing about piezo cable is that it relies on pressure, so it would probably need to go in the bottom of the insert slot, and in a spider bridge, you’ve got the screw to deal with.
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Oh no I didn't think about that! There goes that option  . I would love to hear about any experiments and the results! |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 7:16 am
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As a spider bridge guy for 35 years I've lived through all kinds of piezo attempts over the years. Currently have the Fishman system on 3 guitars. Works like a champ.
My only advice is to mount it as far away from the cone as possible. In my mind that means either under the inserts or perhaps on the spider itself.
Tone is only half the challenge. The other part is that on older piezo tries the guitars had a propensity for feeding back at relatively modest volumes.
Have fun and good luck.
h
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 9:24 am
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I use in my custom what Beard uses in his multi-pickup instruments...the Fishman Powerchip. replaces a volume control and gives the ability to balance the pickups, with an active circuit on the Piezo. Stereo and/or mono output, auto sensing. Battery lasts hundreds of hours.
In the writeup, the PowerBridge actually can be any piezo...
I have the Powerchip for the piezo and a normal volume and tone control for the magnetic pickup...
https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/powerchip/
One note is that a pickup switch has to operate a bit differently than usual...it has to ground the unwanted pickup, not activate the wanted one. Flipping the leaves around in a standard electric guitar pickup switch did the trick...
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https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 11:56 am
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Before the advent of the Fishman system I used a disc type pickup made by Carl McIntire(stuck on the underside of the farthest rear leg of the spider using a particular type of black mastic made by 3M-the stuff DID make a difference) coupled with a Bill Lawrence soundhole acoustic pickup. I ran a stereo cable into an old Fishman Blender preamp. It has separate bass and treble and a phase switch on each channel. Since I wanted close to a real dobro sound I took all the low end off the piezo and all the hi off the magnetic pickup. It got good reviews. If you can get one of those Blenders or even a small mixer you could possibly get what you’re looking for. You’d have to adjust the levels and tone differently. I suggest using a Journey or K&K disc in that position, which captured the resonator sound while minimizing feedback. Superglue is used on guitar bridge plate installations but my thought is that makes the pickup too sensitive for this application. I cannot remember the name of the 3M substance but it was black and quite dense, though easily manipulated into position. You MIGHT get similar result from GOOP, which is used for shoe repairs. It’s a theory.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 4 Nov 2023 12:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| Before the advent of the Fishman system I used a disc type pickup made by Carl McIntire(stuck on the underside of the farthest rear leg of the spider using a particular type of black mastic made by 3M-the stuff DID make a difference) coupled with a Bill Lawrence soundhole acoustic pickup. |
Yeah, me also back in the day. Then came the cone mounted McIntire "Feather" piezo.
That pickup was "evil" and a real feedback machine.
YMMV
h |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 6:04 am
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
My only advice is to mount it as far away from the cone as possible. In my mind that means either under the inserts or perhaps on the spider itself.
h |
The first thought is "Put it on the cone" but I can think of why that wouldn't be a good idea. I like the idea of a bridge mounted piezo. I think I can use these on either side of the screw that attaches to the cone.
https://www.cbgitty.com/guitar-instrument-parts/10pc-ukulele-rod-piezo-pickup/
I have to modify the spider and make a custom bridge anyway. I haven't figured out the active part of the circuit, but I am getting there. This video explains the problem pretty well and shows how to build the buffer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKZPcnwD57U
Thanks for all the input. Saves me a lot of headache trying things that won't work well! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 8:47 am
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I know you're only experimenting but, here's a recent shot of one of Paul Beard's dual pickup (Lollar Gold Foil and Fishman "Nashville" piezo) guitars. Fishman active electronics.
This particular guitar also has the Hipshot "Doubleshot" tail piece. A "loaded" guitar.
Independent volume & tone. Mono or stereo out.
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 9:01 am
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
I know you're only experimenting but, here's a recent shot of one of Paul Beard's dual pickup (Lollar Gold Foil and Fishman "Nashville" piezo) guitars. Fishman active electronics.
This particular guitar also has the Hipshot "Doubleshot" tail piece. A "loaded" guitar.
Independent volume & tone. Mono or stereo out.
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That is the answer. I would love to test drive one of those someday. The swiss army knife of bluegrass, blues, rock, and more. The Fishman aura JD system works so well—I can only imagine how much fun it would be to have the Lollar also. Thanks for posting Howard.
What is MSRP of this guitar as shown?
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 10:21 am
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I'd only be guessing, except to point out that in that market, there is no MSRP... It's "The Price". 
It's def. a custom configuration though.
h |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 10:25 am
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| Howard Parker wrote: |
I'd only be guessing, except to point out that in that market, there is no MSRP... It's "The Price". The Price w/o pickups, etc. is $4,800. Add from there.
The guitar shown is a customized "Josh Swift" model.
h |
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Greg Forsyth
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 10:36 am
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Here you go Brooks, a similar guitar without the Lollar pickup. It says it has a pickup but does not have a description of it----- I imagine it's one of the Fishman Nashville. Also not the "Josh Swift" that Howard has.
https://www.resophonicoutfitters.com/product/1657-23.html |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 10:50 am
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The Swift model is not mine. Beard has pricing/specs for all his models at www.beardguitars.com .
Some guitars come with p/u's installed. Some do not.
h |
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Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 4:32 pm
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Thanks guys, G.A.S. is chronic!
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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2023 4:47 pm
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I tried the blend knob (piezo and magnetic) setup on several resonator guitars, and the two pickup types do not like each other, do not blend well electronically. Ended up with two separate volume knobs and a tone knob for the magnetic, two separate 1/4" jacks. Mix externally with two-channel amp or mini-mixer.
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GFI Expo S-10PE, Sho-Bud 6139, Fender 2x8 Stringmaster, Supro consoles, Dobro. And more. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2023 10:07 am
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| D Schubert wrote: |
| I tried the blend knob (piezo and magnetic) setup on several resonator guitars, and the two pickup types do not like each other, do not blend well electronically. Ended up with two separate volume knobs and a tone knob for the magnetic, two separate 1/4" jacks. Mix externally with two-channel amp or mini-mixer. |
This seems like a good solution, but I don't like the idea of 2 jacks. It seems tricky to make the blend knob work effectively, The Parker Fly mentioned earlier seems to have figured out a solution, but I can't find any specifics about the wiring. I found a number of great threads on this subject on upright bass, mandolin, ukulele and jazz guitar forums. Many discussion , very few schematics and diagrams. I like simple and cheap. Most of these solutions seem to get a bit complicated and expensive. I am confidant there is a way to achieve what I am after, but probably going to take some experimentation. My expectations are pretty low for my first attempt.  |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2023 10:34 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| I like simple and cheap. |
Me too. My solution? Shure SM57:
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