| Author |
Topic: Cherokee - a question. |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 7:16 am |
|
This may belong in 'Music' but, here goes...
It's traditionally in Bb. Every single chart for this tune (fake-books, etc) gives the first chords of the bridge as C#m7/F#7/Bmaj9 (down a tone, it's the iim/dom7/1maj9, the sequence descending in whole steps thereafter).
Interestingly, the melody note (D#) is not contained within that C#m7 chord. Playing it on C6, it's lying there, but really should be C#m7add9 (the D# = the 9).
Fret 4, pedal 7 (C#m7add9), fret four, pedal 5 (F#7), fret 6 (Bmaj9) no pedals, 9th string root.
On E9, however, I find the only satisfactory sub for that C#m chord is in fact an Emaj7!!! 14th fret, strings 9,6,5, A/B pedals, then release pedals for the F#7, down to fret 9 for the Bmaj9 (strings 9,6,5,4, A/B pedals).
So: is the chord E maj7 or is it pleasing my ear as a C#m7/9 despite it lacking that C# note?
Most of all, would you jazz guys agree that C#m7 should be an 'add 9'?
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
 |
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 9:22 am
|
|
On E9, if you have a lever for string 1 (++) and string 2 (+), then m7add9 chords are on that lever + BC. So my Cm7add9 to F#9 change, for example, is at fret 7 on strings 5-1.
Minus that, I think you are good letting the bass player handle the root. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 9:32 am
|
|
That's true, Fred, and I do have that change, but I wanted to maintain a thicker timbre and keep it more C6-like, tonally speaking.
The C#m7/9 (although it lacks an actual C#) on 9,6,5 sounds more compact and the resolution to F#7 simply by releasing the A/B pedals is smoother.
I think that 'add 9' should be in the published charts for the song and it's not (or, not on any I've yet seen).
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 10:09 am
|
|
I don't consider myself a 'jazz guy' but this is a great tune full of beautiful nuance worth looking at.
Melodically, all the 2-5-1 phrases in the B section start on the 9 of the 2m at hand...
So yes it could be regarded as
C#m9 - F#7 - B
Bm9 - E7 - A
Am9 -D7- G
Gm9 - C7 - Cm - F7
I agree w Fred about the bass root note. Emaj7 and C#m9 are relative maj/min so they are great substitutes for one another, (the D# note being the 'flavour' tone in each).
With a C# in the bass then E maj7 is a good sub. Even with E in the bass it would not be terrible, but it would sound more like 4-5-1 |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 10:16 am
|
|
I'd seen that relationship, Andrew (Emaj7/C#m being relative to each other); it took a moment, though.
I'm still surprised that standard charts for this tune don't make it C#m9; that '9' is the melody rather than a flavor note.
My E9 version sounds every bit as full as on C6; I'm not missing that C# note (or maybe my brain is sounding it in my head!)
Thanks, Fred and Andrew, for your input.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 11:03 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'm still surprised that standard charts for this tune don't make it C#m9; that '9' is the melody rather than a flavor note |
I agree, it is such an integral part of the overall harmony. You see this a lot in lead sheets where you'd think the melody note would carry a bit more weight in the harmony description.
I have a bug for this tune now. I just spent some time with it on the E neck, and that B part seems to sit beautifully.
Why not just use string 10 with BC as your m9 voicings ?
That way you maintain the root note and string 9 is there as the min3 of the chord if you want it?
Bmin9 w/BC pedals
5 C#
6 A
7 F#
8 x
9 D
10 B
..up a tone is C#min9, down a tone is Amin9 etc
Take pedals BC up for the dom5 sound same fret and resolve 5 frets lower with AB and string 9 as root of maj7...
The melody seems to be right there in the voicings.. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 12:14 pm
|
|
That's a good idea, And
C#m9 (14th fret): 10,9,7,6 (B/C pedals)
F#7 (14th) 9,6,5 (np)
Bm9 (9th fret) 9,6,5,4 (A/B pedals (picking the 6,5,4 consecutively gives us the melody):
(Ah: I now see that's what you wrote)
"Take pedals BC up for the dom5 sound same fret and resolve 5 frets lower with AB and string 9 as root of maj7..."
I'm not sure if I like the dom 5 with the 10,9,6,5 (np) or just'9,6,5', but that's splitting hairs.
Your way (B/C for the first chord - C#m9) completes the chord and voices it identically to C6th with P7.
I'm happier with that full C#m9 now. 
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
|
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 12:43 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure if I like the dom 5 with the 10,9,6,5 (np) or just'9,6,5', but that's splitting hairs. |
..yes, agreed! if we're going to split hairs though, this is the place   |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 12:58 pm
|
|
Ha! This is indeed the place! Where, if not here, eh?
Dale: My aim is to find a solution to as many harmonic conundrums as I can, especially on E9. I idle away my time doing this, now I no longer play for a living.
You do much the same, but not being able to put it into words or theoretical terms doesn't matter. First, we please our own ears then, maybe, other folks', too.
I'm glad I posted this; Andrew found a solution that I'd overlooked and added the C#. It still sounded good, however, without it. We mostly have just three picks (I sometimes use four), so 'partials' are acceptable, just as they are on 6-string at the highest level.
I do envy those piano-players, though! 
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 12 Nov 2023 1:18 pm
|
|
| I actually play it on E9 just as you said, Roger. And for the same reason. I don’t see a need for including the C#, and it’s not as important as timbre. Plus you can do the ii-V-I all at one fret, just like the other way. |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 13 Nov 2023 9:04 am
|
|
| When I was a jazz composition major at Berklee, they taught us to always write the chord name in its simplest form. We would never write 9's, 13's, etc. It was always a 7th, Maj7, min7, etc., unless the tensions didn't fit in with the normal chord structure. It is up to the player to add the tensions they want to play that are appropriate to the chord. I think this has become standard for most of the jazz world. So y'all are right: they are 9th chords, but it doesn't need to be written out that way. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 13 Nov 2023 9:23 am
|
|
| The brilliance of the ABC pedals never ceases to amaze me. |
|
|
|
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
|
Posted 13 Nov 2023 12:49 pm
|
|
You got that right, Fred. It's hard to beat that tuning.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
---------------------------------- |
|
|
|
I'll continue trying to scratch the surface to start a little ditch for it to fall into, but so far..........