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Topic: Williams pedal steel guitar. Compensators |
Mark Shields
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2023 9:43 am |
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| I just bought a sd10 2020 model Williams. I was wondering what the compensators look like and if they are fairly easy to install. Can someone post pics of your compensators so I can get an idea how they work? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Oct 2023 2:06 pm
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Compensators for what exactly? I have additional pulls which lower string 7 a tad when the A or C pedal is depressed. I'm not aware of any separate component called "compensator".
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill McCloskey
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Oct 2023 3:06 pm
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That is confusing. He seems to have the completely different problems of temperament and "cabinet drop" all jumbled up. My 2018 Williams doesn't have any audible drop, but it still needs compensation to enable the 7th string to do its two jobs, of being either a fourth or a fifth below string 5 depending on the psotion of the A pedal. (It has been acknowledged for centuries that the second degree of the scale is ambiguous.)
[to answer Mark's original question, a compensator looks like any other pull, i.e. a crank and a rod]
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 21 Oct 2023 4:49 pm
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| There tuning compensators as Ian said to sweeten 7th string to 5A and 5 open. There are return compensators to help lowers return to correct pitch ( think C6 neck 10th string dropped A back to C). Then there's detuning compensators (Emmons Legrande 111, that raise strings that tend to drop with pedals down(open 4th string). |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2023 9:12 pm
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OK...this is the thread I needed! ..I've read all the compensator threads....
I don't see how any chord using string 7 would need it lowered...F#m, BMajor,???
the other strings that would be in those chords would have thirds that would then be too sharp....
??
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 12:17 am
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Put simply, if the 7th string is in tune for B major then it will be sharp for F# minor. Equal temperament was invented to solve this problem on keyboards, but ET is too harsh for steel - hence sweetened tunings.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mark Shields
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 4:14 am
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| Thanks everyone. I get it now. Everything I read, up till now, just assumed I new what they were talking about. Makes sense. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 8:58 am
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Ian-
I still don't see it...in those chords, if F# is lowered, the thirds will be wrong (sharp). I guess you are saying that the 5ths are more important than the 3rds?
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 1:21 pm
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Steve - if you tune straight up or with a programmable tuner, then the problem has been taken out of your hands.
I tune in natural intervals on E9 (so-called JI) so the 7th string has to do double duty.
So, if you don't understand what I'm going on about, it's because you don't need to 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 3:09 pm
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Ian-
Well, I use a Pete-Burak-derived thing that is an easy version of JI...I adjust E's for drop, and then G#,C#, and F flattened in increasing amounts for the chords they mostly lie in...others straight up.
So understanding how the F# relates to the chords it is in would help me...I actually have a string 7 compensator rod that I haven't installed....
When I play my 7th string against my 5th, open and with A-pedal, I don't hear any beats at all (adjusting pitch to bring them on and then retuning to my setting)...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 3:33 pm
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Craig-
My comment has nothing to do with Rittenberry or Fessenden or videos...I'm responding to the OP Williams post, other comments, and my quest to understand how compensators fit into the overall tuning...
Or perhaps I didn't understand your comment?
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2023 8:56 pm
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You must have been reading as I deleted my comment. After I posted it I didn't understand it either.
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2013 Williams D-10, 2019 Williams D-10, 1970 Fender Twin, Evans SE200, Fender Tonemaster Twin, Hilton pedal, Jagwire Strings. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 1:51 am
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I can explain why string 7 needs compensation if you tune in JI, but first I should point out that I have never experienced cabinet drop. The very first steel I owned was a 1960s pull-release D10 of massive construction and the one I subsequently built was deliberately over-engineered to make sure it played ok – I wasn’t too concerned about gigging it. When later I acquired a couple of modern S12s (including a Williams) they didn’t have any drop either. They are the opposite of massive, so I guess construction got smarter.
In theory, if string 7 is in tune for the B chord with pedals up and the E lever engaged, then it will be sharp (by a factor of 81:80) for F#m with the pedals down. Now it’s entirely possible that if your guitar detunes sufficiently when the pedals go down, the problem solves itself near enough for no additional measures to be necessary.
On my instruments, if I tune the open E, G# and B so that I can hear no beats (I am a trombone player by trade, so this is my natural habit) and then tune A and C# likewise with pedals down, and the E lowers so that they are correct relative to the Bs, then that just leaves the F#s. Ignoring the 1st string which wouldn’t normally feature in F#m, that leaves the 7th.
Uncompensated, if I tune it beatless with the Bs then with pedals down the interval it makes with the C#s will be off by 81/80 and I'll hear beats. As I’ve said before, if you’re not aware of any discrepancy, then nothing’s broke and you don’t need to fix it.
This last part is the maths, which you are at liberty to skip. If the frequency of 8th string E is f, then we can calculate the frequency of F# by two routes.
(1.) B chord – pedals up. 5th string B is f x 3/2, and F# a perfect fourth below that is therefore
f x 3/2 x 3/4 = f x 9/8 – this is known as a major whole tone.
(2.) F#m chord – pedals down. 5th string C# is f x 5/3, and F# a perfect fifth below that is therefore
f x 5/3 x 2/3 = f x 10/9 - this is known as a minor whole tone. 9/8 is larger than the required 10/9 so the note will be sharp.
If you divide those two final ratios you get the 81/80 mentioned above. In practice I have two extra lowers on string 7, one from the A pedal and one from the C.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 7:29 am
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| Quote: |
| So understanding how the F# relates to the chords it is in would help me...I |
Steve, sounds like you have a practical understanding already, but perhaps this will help.
In basic Just Intonation intervals of any key, the major 6 sits very flat in comparison to ET, ( about 16 cents ) while the 9th/2nd sits higher ( about 4 cents ) than in ET.
The problem with the F# tone on E9 is that it wants to be a bright sounding 9th in the E major context, and also be a relaxed major 6 in the A chord ( A6, F#m7 etc ) but these are ultimately different pitches.
This is audible and real stuff. If you were to measure the intervals of JI you would get this table, that compares JI to ET in approximate cents.
The left column is the diatonic interval or chord tone.
Beside it is how sharp or flat the JI version is, compared to ET.
R -0-
2 +4
3 -14
4 -2
5 +2
6 -16
7 -12
8 -0-
Simply put, when switching from the key of E to key of A, or B, ala E9 pedal steel, many of the same intervals exist in each key centre, but some cannot be used, so the compensator lowers or raises can make things work more smoothly.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 24 Oct 2023 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 9:21 am
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Thanks for that Andrew - a musical explanation without any maths
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 6:56 pm
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Ian & Andrew-
Thanks! It all is much clearer now...
Another way to see it is that the F# in PD A scale should be as flat as the C# in an open E scale ...and I do flat my C#...both are sixths ...
And yes, if I tune for open, in the PD F#minor I hear the beats, until I adjust the F# down...
BUT in the F#minor the root and fifth now are much flatter than the third...so what give with that? That was always my question - how it works when the third is so much sharper than the root or fifth...is that correct for minor chords, unlike major chords? that could be the source of my confusion?
And why can't I just put the compensator on the B-pedal alone? I remember that Tucker Jackson explained it once, but I can't find that post...I think it had something to do the the B+LKR 7th chord in which the compensator would make a flatted 5th if the 7th string is played, I guess that would ruin that chord?
Lastly, the C-pedal needs it for the F#minor with string 7 (because the C pedal raises string 4 but not string 8 ), but the I guess C-pedal E-F# change on string 4 also needs to be a bit flat for that chord? I tune that straight up now...whoops...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 7:26 pm
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| Quote: |
..... when the third is so much sharper than the root or fifth...is that correct for minor chords, unlike major chords? that could be the source of my confusion?
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Yes indeed Steve, min 3rds are much wider in just tuning systems than in ET.
They are the flipped Ma6 scenario....
So in the key of E, for example, the interval between C# and E is going to be as wide as the maj6th is narrow.
The 'pure' min3 is derived from the interval between the 3rd and 5th in a just tuned major chord.
And the ear will recognize it as such because it is audible in any open string...
If you listen very closely to the sound of your 8th string open, for example, you'll hear the faint G# and B ringing as overtones and creating a pure major triad together w the open E root tone. The distance between the G# and B is a pure min 3rd. |
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Paul Brainard
From:
Portland OR
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Posted 23 Oct 2023 8:09 pm Comps
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| Steve, you are welcome to borrow my copy of the Harvard Dictionary of Music wherein you will find a great article on the Pythagorean Comma. Or, you can also just use another age-old remedy: more vibrato! |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 24 Oct 2023 6:08 pm
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| Quote: |
| Thanks for that Andrew - a musical explanation without any maths |
well, hardly Ian. But a few numbers here and there hopefully don't hurt.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Oct 2023 12:40 am
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Indeed not. On other pages, did the ancient Greeks use vibrato? I bet they did.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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