You’re a new lap steel player. What vexes you most?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I would like to ask new/newish players what vexes them most about playing. Or even players who have been at it for a while.
I’m hoping to get a little insight into this from others’ perspectives. I know what vexed me most, and those issues mostly had to do with learning the neck inside and out in every tuning that I played, but also in getting my right hand together.
There is light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe I can help out by posting some tips-oriented videos.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links

Noah Miller · From: Rocky Hill, CT

For me, it's that the best intonation is often not directly above the fret marker. You have to dial it in by ear, and I have terrible ears.

Bill Groner · From: QUAKERTOWN, PA

Are you sure the markers are in the proper position. When I first started I bought a stick on fretboard from a so called reputable vendor and it was way off!. After that disappointment I always made my own.
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Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40

Carey Hofer · From: South Dakota, USA

For me, one of the most bothersome things is when I move the bar towards the nut. . . Trying to stop at the right place. My hand covers where I want to stop so I just guess. Or worse yet, I slide past the spot I want to go so I can see it and go to my spot. I finally stumbled on the fact that if I don't cover up all of the frets (unless I am playing on the first or second string) I can keep my eye on the fret above the bar and use that for a reference. Hard to get used to that. Maybe I have just formed a bad habit. Does this make sense? Will I just get better at this as time goes on?

Jim Fogarty · From: Phila, Pa, USA

RH in general......picks, in particular.

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

Playing slants in tune!

David Irving · From: South Australia, Australia

My biggest problem is muting. I've been playing steel for a few years now, but I'm still struggling to unlearn the habits from 50 years fingerpicking an acoustic guitar, where you almost never want to mute.

Chris Harwood · From: Kentucky, USA

Turning down the reverb....
Sorry...had to say it.
But seriously is eveness of notes and playing in tune, for me.

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Bar control is a serious challenge. I have been using a dobro style bar lately and it instantly made me a better player, but it is limiting in terms of slanting for sure. I thought of lots of other things as well.

String skipping using the proper grips etc. to get the chord you want. Specifically relating to playing minor chords, songs or passages in 6th tunings. I tend to hear a 6th chord as Major more than minor. I am trying to play more difficult songs since I got into this as well so that adds to the challenge. Swing and Hawaiian tunes are a bit more complex than the usual folky stuff I used to almost exclusively play. Lets see..

Harmonics are tricky, especially cause I wear 3 fingerpicks usually. Steel guitar is a hard instrument.

Had to add one more....Pick blocking!

Chris Harwood · From: Kentucky, USA

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned hecklers yet

Sorry again...I'll go sit down.
BUT I DO love your ytube channel... good stuff!

Liam Tyner · From: British Columbia, Canada

Been playing for 4 years and still struggling with RH form. In my first year of playing I developed a lot of bad habits (especially a very flat top of hand with spread out fingers) that I have been working on unlearning ever since I became aware of the detriments of that hand position. I feel my hand has been slowly progressing into the optimal arched and curled finger position, but if I’m not consistently conscious of it it will flatten back out when skipping strings or playing single note runs. Another vex of mine may be a habit of ‘over blocking’, where my background in armpit guitar tendencies don’t allow for the fluid glissando that the steel guitar is famous and beloved for.

Thanks for opening up this discussion, it will hopefully save many new players from beating their head against a wall for years.
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WWJBD

Lloyd Graves · From: New York, USA

What is most infuriating about steel guitar for me is the very expensive "trial and error" nature of the steel guitar.

1. Choose an instrument: Do you want to play acoustic or electric? If the former, do you get a dobro, a tricone or a nut riser for that old dreadnought with a bowed neck? If the latter, do you get a lap steel or a console (with 1, 2 or 3 necks)? And no matter which you choose, do you get 6, 7, 8 or 10 strings?

2. Whoch tuning? Choose wisely because each set of strings costs (a not insignificant amount of) money and can only get to a few tunings. And each tuning kind of does its own special thing. And do you choose flat wounds?

(Many/most YouTube videos, 78s and LPs/CDs do not list their tunings.)

3. Finger picks are really costly and you need decide if you want plastic or metal, and which brand. And thumb picks are a while different experiment, with some brands being outlandish expensive. And after months of trial and error you might decide you cannot stand picks anyhow.

4. Which bar? Try it the different styles in any of a million materials from any of a million different companies. And if you've decided on some random persons side hustle, hope they don't stop before you decide to buy a backup.

5. How are you going to learn? In person, onlime, tab, or videos?
What resources do you choose to learn from? Steel players are free and far between, and a good steel player night all be a crappy teacher. Which means that, even if you're lucky to live in an area with a good player, finding a teacher might be impossible.

I've been at this instrument for about 6 years now, cumulatively spending thousands of dollars and countless hours only to occasionally feel confident enough to consider myself in the advanced beginner category. I've put serious time and energy into 3-4 tunings, worked through five steels (aviation and electric), tried several different types of metal and plastic finger picks, and an equal amount of thumb picks. If tried in person lessons, zoom lessons, books, tabs with backing tracks, and videos. That is downright depressing when I compare this to my journey on the banjo, which started with $25 banjo and free lessons from a college classmate. Within 5 years I was very competent on the banjo, in multiple tunings, all attainable with the same set of banjo strings.

What might be nice to see is a Door Opener Series of lessons, using an open tuned acoustic guitar with a nut riser, a 3" long Copper pipe (or some other common thing you might have in the house), and bare fingers. This while teaching simple but interesting tunes to learn R and L hand techniques, scales and chords... Something too inspire folks to get started without needing to sell their plasma.

Just a thought.

Brooks Montgomery · From: Idaho, USA

OK, Lloyd opened up this thread for banjo jokes……
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A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first.

John Harmon · From: Virginia, USA

Right now I have trouble knowing when to mute and when to let them ring, particularly in a jam session where you don't have time to think about it.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Good morning! Okay, this is going to be a cool thread, or whatever you call it on a forum. I hope that it gives some food for thought and some daylight.

First, I feel your pain. When I first found a lap steel at a flea market, I wasn't really sure at all what it even was, let alone how I would go about learning.
The thing I would say about the lap steel is that it would qualify as a folk instrument because of its history in traditional music, both Hawaiian, blues and country music.
As with many other other folk instruments, the approach to playing varies with the specific music being played and even can further subdivide by region. There is NO ONE WAY to approach playing, whether it's technique, tuning or the instrument itself. It's kind of incumbent on us to make choices and then proceed from there.

I remember first playing my steel like it was a slide guitar (which I had played a lot of). I resorted to tunings that I was familiar with as a guitarist, whether open G, A, E or even standard guitar tuning. I was desperate and there was very little material available, as this was pre-internet (at least for me). I was using a Stevens bar because it was what came with my steel. I tried to play for a while, even taking it to some NYC clubs and sitting in with some monster musicians and dare I say rock stars. The instrument turned heads as an oddity, but my playing was abysmal. I think Elmore James was the goal but what came out, I'm not quite sure.

So, who are lap steel players? Mostly they are coming from playing another instrument like guitar or bass, but sometimes people with no musical experience have a passion to pick up the instrument. Many are led to the instrument through traditions, like Hawaiian, Sacred, Bluegrass, etc. Some of us are chasing after something we heard that inspired us to investigate the possibilities. I fit into that latter category after having played guitar since childhood and having a pretty nice career at it. Which leads me to my next point....

As accomplished musicians, sometimes we are misled by the notion that it is going to come easier for us. I would say that, while there are advantages obviously, this is also a minefield. The one thing I think I can say is that good time and feel is a crucial quality to have, but having good technique is important to the process beyond measure. We're not talking slap-on-the-hands-with-a-ruler type discipline, but a soundness of being able to consistently play in tune with accurate picking, good tone and appropriate vibrato. Doesn't seem too hard, right? Haha

The single most important things you can do to improve your playing are: to listen deeply to what you are playing and, more specifically, to what you are hearing internally, and to relax. The process begins in our mind and our motor activity is a realization of that. Just like with walking, eating, running, it is a simple act that in reality is an extremely complex process. But our mind is the center of where it all begins.

Lloyd mentioned a few areas of struggle for some players who might be overwhelmed by all the choices they are faced with, and it is definitely valid. This is where you have to make a choice at your entry point, and that choice should be dictated by your musical goals/taste/inspiration. If you love the sound of a dobro and there is some particular music that you love, then that should be your point of entry. If it is early acoustic Hawaiian music, again, this is your point of entry. That is not to say that it's where you will end up, but it gives you a place to get your feet on the ground and begin building technique and familiarity with the process of playing.

As far as instruments are concerned, it doesn't take a great instrument to get you going. A beater acoustic with a nut raiser can do the job. In fact, it's better to start with something not so amazing, in my opinion. It may add to the frustration but it will also build up your resilience and you'll always have something else to put the blame on. Smile

. Honestly, don’t let yourself get too hung up on all the details/choices that you’re going to read about. Put yourself in the mindset of the early players who excelled in spite of the limitations, because after all, learning to work through limitations is what steel guitar is all about.

That's all for now, but I'll try to delve deeper as I am able.
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Steve Marinak · From: Man O War Cay, Abaco, Bahamas

For me, at the point I am in my learning, it would be playing behind the singer. As a regular "Spanish" Guitar player, I think of it as "comping", or backup. The first things I have learned is how to play melodies with single strings and intervals. Albeit that is nice and sounds good with a bass and guitar, I believe my next hurdle would be to accompany a singer. My hunch is that I should be hearing and visualizing the chord progression passing along. I would like to know what the pros do to fill.
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Steve Marinak

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bar hand

I would like to offer this simple explanation of the way I use my bar hand. First and foremost, my hand is relaxed and I am not using any tension in my muscles of thenar (the muscles below the thumb), which can easily cramp up. My hand guides the bar rather than holds it. The index finger supplies downward pressure needed to make a nice solid tone, the middle finger behind provides stability at the nose and the thumb is at the ready for slanting. For picking up the bar, I simply squeeze the thumb and middle finger a little to the bar and lift the tail.

It's important that the bar moves in a straight line up and down the neck. The wrist should be stable and the elbow close to your side. As you move up the neck, the wrist should bend to accommodate--the same with reaching all the way down towards the nut. That kind of stability is important.
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

Lloyd's comments remind me of b0b's wise advise to all new steel players: Pick the common tunings that have the most instructional material.

for pedal that means E9th or E9th/C6 and for lap steel that means C6. For Dobro that means G tuning. 10 strings, 8 strings, 6 string.

I, and so many others, ignored this advice and some of us are still chasing the latest and greatest tuning (guilty). My playing didn't really advance until I focused on one tuning exclusively (in my case the alkire tuning, which fortunately had a ton of lessons devoted to it).

And I have finally purged myself of all my pedal steels except good old D10 E9/C6, and abandoned the extended, the universal, the newest tuning on the block.

Focus is the key. Muscle memory that knows one instrument, one tuning which has been burnished into our synapses. And go with one with tons of teaching materials.

Now if I can only learn this lesson myself.
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bill, I wholeheartedly agree with picking a tuning and learning what is possible with it. It is helpful to have the forum to search and find out what tunings were used on certain recordings so you are not completely in the dark. These conversations have come up hundreds of times on the old forum and here. Some of it is speculation and some is fact.

I started with the basic guitar-friendly tunings mentioned above until I eventually moved to Sol Hoopii's C#min tuning. It was a few years before I acquiesced and struggled with C6 for a few years. In hindsight, it could have been made easier but I am not really the type to learn from tabs. I transcribed a bunch of recordings and kept at it until I could see what was happening and where. Since then, I've been able to discover a lot of things on my own, but that wouldn't have been possible without a laser focus on one tuning.

I've been playing C6-based tunings now for about 15 years and to make matters more interesting, I have downgraded to 6 strings after years of playing 8. I feel like I am getting even deeper into it.
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Brian Fox · From: Minnesota, USA

For me its the E 13th tuning neck and A6 neck I find challenging but enjoy it. I wish there was more resources available online for these. I have the Helms book, lessons with Troy and have watched the Eddie Rivers videos. I would like to expand my understanding on the chords on these necks but often find myself playing pockets and chords I already know. Which can be a little redundant at times. Id love to get into more bar slants and minor chords on these necks.However they are pretty versatile.I find myself using cello drones and puttsing around with keys and scales that way.....

Always looking for tab on these....

Mark Evans · From: Colorado, USA

I come from a singer-songwriter wannabe, late 70’s/early 80’s. Lived in a town with some innovative player/songwriters (Greg Brown being one). My approach to music in a general was not really based in any fixed idiom or genre, whatever. Not complicated, musically, but not dedicated to a fixed form (bluegrass, blues, old timey, swing, country, etc). There were bits of these things in the stew, but it was always ecclectic.

When I started in on Weissenborn around 2010 (I owned a 50’s Supro for a few months) I did experiment with many tunings (including breaking lots of strings getting C6 to work). As many know, Weiss really sings in D, G and C (baritone). But I found myself just pursuing the sound, strings of notes riffed in between chord work. Tho I don’t play like him (or half as well), I’ve always found the work of Fred Kinbom to be intriguing.

I’m messing with a sustainer (Sound Stone) and a looper, layering light cascading sheets of notes vs. approximating and/or perfecting work from past masters of lap steel. The general vibe for lap steel seems to be the study of traditional modes.

So I guess my vex was… can I find a fun personal voice and discovery on lap steel by following my nose -errr, my ears - without a groundwork of the classics? The answer seems to be … sure!

Would it fly on a live stage…. Hmmmm not sure
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Larry Pogreba Baritone 'Weissenheimer
Lazy River mahogany standard Weiss
Lazy River ‘Tear Drop” weissenborn
2017 Richard Wilson Style 1 Weissenborn

David DeLoach · From: Tennessee, USA

When I was getting started slants were the big challenge. Sounded like 2 howling cats trying to harmonize.
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