Tone Struggles

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Ever since I started playing, I have never been happy with my tone. I've gone through countless amps, effects, setups, etc. Ive had others play this guitar, and tell me it sounds kind of thin even on their rigs. Well, last night I was in the studio practicing, and I mentioned it to the engineer, and he showed me the spectrum analyzer for my channel... NOTHING below the low-mids. This was my DI signal. The picture is the best I've got for a pic of the pickup, currently. Should I be after a humbucker, or just something different? I believe my CMI originally came with a George L's. Should I go back with that? I've got other issues as well, but from guitar-to-board this seems to be the biggest one. Second, the pot in my Goodrich has gone south, since I could hear it crackling on the DI. Goodrich doesn't seem to have them for sale on their site, Where could I track something down like that? They're seemingly out of stock everywhere I've looked upon a cursory google search...

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Have you tried a Sarno Black Box?
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Looks like a TrueTone pickup, which should be fine. Check the pickup height from the strings. It could also be out of level, favoring the treble side. Wiring might be bad. The coil winding could be broken somewhere, or it could be a poorly wound knock-off of a TrueTone, in which case swapping it with your GeorgeL should make a notable difference.

How does it sound when you leave the volume pedal out of the signal path and plug straight into the amp?

Looks like a pretty nice studio 😮🤘

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

I have adjusted the pickup height, and have isolated the steel from the volume pedal. Nothing seems to make a notable difference. I've tried a Twin, musicman hd130, boss katana, several bass amps, everything all leads to a brittle, no low end sound. I am better at "gear" than I am music, so all of that stuff I have on hand. Last night I was playing a diezel vh4, I also used it for guitar, which sounded stellar.. Same settings on steel, thin and lifeless.

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

With that said I would have to try a new pickup. You took out an E66 for some reason so going back doesn't seem like an option. Get a Lawrence 705. That is a humbucker that helped my thin sounding steel. Justice steels come equipped with it stock. I'm sure there is others.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Could be your right hand technique or a couple other things. We could do a facetime call and maybe sort it out in a few minutes.
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Bob

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Maybe it's time to think about swapping guitars. There are good and bad pickups and amps or better choices for this or that sound or player. However, if you're changing pickups and amps in hopes of achieving a sound that's not there to begin with in some way, you'll probably never find it.

Low end response can be very different from one guitar to another, and a tighter/more focused bass response will be perceived as having more bass a lot of the time because it's all useful in the sound of the steel and band mix.

Tom Bradshaw sells pots.
https://songwriter.com/bradshaw/potentiometers.php

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Did you reverse the input and output on the volume pedal?
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Bill Ferguson · From: Milton, FL USA

Jake,
I have the volume pots in stock and I include a new string with every pot.
Drop me an email
bferguson1947@gmail.com
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AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I had the same problem with thin sound when I went to a Evans AH 200. When I went to a Quilter Tone Block 202 the guitar sounded even thinner.

I was playing through a set of George L small cables (.155 Diameter) Went to a set of heavier cables (.240 Diameter) From Guitar to Volume Pedal to Amp. I was able to get the sound I was looking for. Just with larger cables.

Happy Steelin.

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Ordered a pot from Tom Bradshaw (thanks Tom, if you're here!)

I played some last night in the wee hours of the morning. I stared at the underside of this thing for an hour. Nothing evident as an issue. Changed picks, changed hand positions, eq. Added a low end boost via a modeling software and got it to sound passable. Hopefully the 705 and new pot will make a big difference.

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Ordered a pot from Tom Bradshaw (thanks Tom, if you're here!)

I played some last night in the wee hours of the morning. I stared at the underside of this thing for an hour. Nothing evident as an issue. Changed picks, changed hand positions, eq. Added a low end boost via a modeling software and got it to sound passable. Hopefully the 705 and new pot will make a big difference.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Yes, using George-L cables would definitely emphasize the highs. And while your "thin and lifeless" sound could just be too much mids, I'm more inclined to think you may have an open pickup.

Have you ever ohmed the pickup?

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Again, sorry to mention the obvious, but did you wiggle around with the pickup wire going to the output jack, and inspect the jack itself? Maybe it’s not making good contact. It sounds to me like everything is pointing to a bad pickup, a funky jack, or a bad connection between the two. I guess you’ll find out after you swap the pickup.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Keep in mind that most pedal steels have a naturally trebly sound through a DI, since you're essentially playing a solid-body guitar with just a bridge pickup. When the engineer showed you the lack of bass on the spectrum analyzer, you can easily see why many amps (Fender, especially) allowed you to "scoop out" the mids. Since the steel's natural sound is loaded with mids and highs, it usually takes some electronic tonal manipulation to get a balanced sound. (The mids and highs simply overpower the lower frequencies.) My settings for a Twin reverb were always Treble 3, Mids 0-4, and Bass 6-10. These settings allowed me to approximate the neck pickup sound of most solid body guitars, something with more body and fullness. However, many players (and studio people) like a more trebly sound with little bass, since it can cut through the bass and rhythm in the mix more easily. I always preferred something more akin to a tone between Charleton and Chalker - sweetness, but with some power and impact. The sessions I did using my amp had a totally different sound than those I did through a DI right into the board.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

To answer most questions, I went ahead and put a new jack in the old girl to rule that out. Made no difference. I went ahead and made some brand new cables for myself out of Mogami wire, and neutrik connectors. That actually DID make some difference but mostly in clarity. I raised the pickup, lowered the pickup, changed strings, changed amps. When the 705 arrives, if that doesn't do it, someone is going to get a good deal on this thing and I'm going to mortgage my house, sell my wife, and get a Mullen Royal Precision.

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

A lot of good suggestions above but one has not been brought up yet except indirectly by Ken Metcalf.

A Truetone at 19 K should give a fairly dark tone in that it will be quite rolled off by 4-5 kHz, but if loaded with a high parallel resistance it will have a tall peak at 1.5-2 kHZ since thats where the pickup resonant peak is with that much inductance.

A lower parallel resistance will smooth the peak and give a flatter overall frequency response. This is what the Sarno preamps and similar are giving you control of, but you can solder a resistor across the jack and accomplish the same thing. You could also solder a resistor in a cable to try it. Or try a lower resistance volume pedal.

The principle is exactly the same as a guitar player that has 500 K pots changing to 250K pots to darken the tone.

The tone reference standard of the good old Session 400 and a standard 500K passive pedal will have a parallel resistance of less than 200K.

Also the tonal difference of DI vs an amp as Donny says is large, but can be tamed for DI with a speaker emulator.
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com

Jake Bopp · From: Tallahassee, FL

So, to compare apples to oranges - My steel tone is more along the lines of a cheap mexican tele bridge pickup. Thin, not in the least "lively." I also play guitar, and you know how the neck pickup of a strat, or tele "activates" the hidden "gloss?" Gloss is probably the best word to describe what my steel sound is missing. It's lifeless, flat. Sort of like playing on a practice amp, no guts, no balls. Nothing. It's uninspiring at the least, and demoralizing at best. Perhaps it's just the nature of a mica/aluminum guitar (or this particular one.) I spent some time with another forum member(Hi, Ron!) and when he played it, it sounded similar to how it sounds when I play it (obviously way better, and a way more skilled player.) When he switched to his Emmons, the sound was there. That "Gloss" was there. Sure, way higher end guitar - but same dude, same amp, same settings - and my steel sounded like it came out of a Sears catalog. The kicker is... Ron's Emmons has the same pickup this guitar has. (at least we believed it to be.)

Perhaps it's time to part with this one, but I hate to give up the old girl, Charlie McGough did a great job on the building side. (RIP Charlie!) I really hate to not be able to bond with it, because it doesn't sound how I want it to. The 705, and new pot for my pedal are in the mail. Just this afternoon, I got wind of a late 60s/early 70's Emmons that may reside with me, soon. I can side by side, long as nobody makes fun of my playing. Laughing

I would really like an in person instructor, someone I can disappoint, which would provide me the motivation to excel. Digital instruction, which is all I've had thus far, is clearly not my forte.

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