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Topic: Ex-Guitarists - How Do You Approach E9 Soloing? |
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2023 7:41 pm |
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Hey.....kind of a philosophical musical question.
Especially for the ex-electric lead guitarists out (or current!)......how do you think and approach soloing on E9 psg? Recently I've been finding my E9 solos are variations of playing the melody, harmonized scales and chord moves (mostly A and B pedals). Whereas on guitar, while I use those ideas, too, I also play a ton of flowing improvised single-note pentatonic (and other) solos. While I know my scales on E9, that doesn't seem to be as comfortable, or sound as effective on psg. Or maybe I'm approaching it wrong.
So basically.....how do YOU solo on E9??
- Jim |
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Justin Shaw
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Nov 2023 8:26 pm
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I have two basic modes for soloing on E9: sacred steel type vocal lines or more traditional harmonized pedal steel lines in 3rds and 6ths. Having played slide guitar and lap steel before psg, I am able to do some of the emulation of singing you hear from AJ Ghent and the Campbell brothers, although nothing like as good as they can. That's fun stuff but since it's almost exclusively one note at a time it really doesn't take advantage of what the pedal steel can do. The pedal steel is able to produce multiple expressive voices at once in a way no other instrument can. For this reason I'm learning more and more about playing two notes at once even when I solo.
I think something that is often missed when people move to psg from guitar is how important moving up and down the neck is in psg. Guitar players very often play in a box at 3 or 4 frets, mostly playing across the neck. When you see great psg players they play up and down the neck extremely often, and far more often than most guitar players. At least part of this is that that allows you to keep multiple voices ringing while you play. It is true that you can get lots of chords at a particular bar position, but the sound of psg from the greats has a great deal to do with changing positions. Before I started to digest Buddy Emmons' version of Shenandoah, I was basically playing psg like a harp. That can be fun too, but now I strive to keep every voice singing as long as possible.
So to sum up, I strive in my solos to make the instrument sound like a singer. Increasingly I try to sound like 2 or 3 singers singing in harmony. That will take me the rest of my life. |
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Igor Fiksman
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2023 10:12 pm
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I agree that temptation to stay in a single position and go through the pedal/lever changes is very strong, especially since that's the sound that is uniquely associated with pedal steel. And it's also true that a tremendous volume of great up and down the neck solo playing was already perfected by early greats before pedals were even invented. I guess the best creative and most memorable solos are a combination of these approaches. Ultimately a solo should be a great addition to the the song and not just an exercise in showcasing technical ability of the soloist. Some of the best ever solos are very simple but perfect take on the melody line.
One suggestion is learning as many positions of each chord up and down the neck as possible and practicing transitioning as smoothly as you can between them. It helps to think outside of the 3 fret box and serves to find a lot of passing scale and melodic passages you may not consider otherwise.
Also,learn as many great solos by your favorite steel players as you can note for note - it helps to find different techniques and moves you may have never thought of yourself and expands your vocabulary. That reminds me - I need to go work on that last piece of "wisdom" myself.
_________________
SHO-BUD Professional SD-10 Black, SHO-BUD Pro III Custom D-10 Red, Goodrich Matchbox 6A, Steeler's Choice seat, Quilter Steelaire Amps. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 8:59 am
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Interesting topic for double-duty players.
Playing lead guitar is all about technique and knowing the neck. It’s 6-strings all in a single 22-fret position to me. I have been trying for 7 years to get to that point with E9, finding the ways to link it all together.
Echoing the point Igor makes in his post…
Every position (no-pedals, AB down, AF, etc.) and every string group holds its own little secrets, so they have to be learned individually before you can tie them together. Switching from S10 to S12 E9 really helped me see the neck from a more familiar guitar player perspective.
Paul Franklin’s concept of triadic and intervallic improvisation helped get my brain engaged with the whole process.
I think it’s also very important to understand the song or piece you are playing in order to play something appropriate and meaningful, whether on guitar or steel. It’s not always about showboating or blindly winging it.
There are many musical concepts that transfer from guitar (as well as other instruments - it’s all music!) to PSG, but technique is so different that the only real similarities between the two instruments are the fretboard scale and the pitch range, maybe some tone and timbre characteristics. For me, there are always going to be things that I commonly play on guitar that are virtually impossible on PSG, and definitely vice-versa. I have nooo problem with that. In fact, those differences are what draws me to one or the other 😎 |
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Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 2:47 pm Solos
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Learn the MELODY..then use it for soloing around. 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2023 6:12 pm Re: Solos
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| Larry Allen wrote: |
| Learn the MELODY..then use it for soloing around. |
Well yeah, that’s a pretty big part of “understanding the song”, but I suppose spelling it out doesn’t hurt. Sometimes songs can get pretty repetitious with 3-note melodies though, so it helps to know what the words and rhythms are trying to convey. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 3:34 am
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I do try to take advantage of the different mechanical abilities built into the pedal-steel and aim for melodies that isnt typical or obvious to play when playing regular 6 string.
My steel guitar playing is however colored musically by having played regular guitar far longer.
Over the years I have progressed(learning/knowing/understanding musical theory/chords/scales) more and more towards playing what I "hear" before actually playing it and knowing how the particular instrument plays and feels will somehow dictate what I "hear" which again make my solos slightly different if I play steel-guitar vs reglular guitar.
My steel guitar solos or fills do contain more two part harmony than my regular guitar soloing does.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9
G&L ASAT Classic 6string |
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Justin Shaw
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 7:34 am
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Well said, Bengt.
I think a big part of the pedal sound is harmony, including during solos. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 8:18 am
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Interesting topic.. I dunno, I'm not sure if my guitar style has any impact on my steel playing or vice versa.. I just kind of let it flow, and it works.. I have never thought about it much... Once many many years ago, a bandmate {GREAT guitarist!, said to the rest of band after a song-
"poor Bob, he's all f%&**#&d up".. Plays his guitar like a pedal steel, and his pedal steel like a guitar...
We all laughed at the time, but I never forgot that little joking comment from back in the 70's.. Leads me to think that a lot of us double duty guitar/steel guys do indeed exhibit a certain similitude on our 2 instruments, even without being aware of it..
Again, I don't think much about it, but it IS a very thought provoking topic, worthy of discussion!
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
Last edited by Bob Carlucci on 23 Nov 2023 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 9:37 am
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That is a very astute observation by your old pal there, Bob.
When I saw the John Jorgenson Gypsy Jazz Quintet a few years ago, John played a few tunes on his clarinet. He absolutely killed on it, but I couldn’t help thinking during one of his mind-blowing solos that his phrasing style on the clarinet is very similar to his guitar playing. I guess you can take the instrument out of the musician, but you can’t take the musician out of the instrument. |
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Justin Shaw
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 1:45 pm
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| I'm in the same boat. I try to play what I hear in my head, so I sound like me on any instrument I can play well. I pick the instrument which will best express what I hear, but it'll still be me. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2023 1:49 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
That is a very astute observation by your old pal there, Bob.
When I saw the John Jorgenson Gypsy Jazz Quintet a few years ago, John played a few tunes on his clarinet. He absolutely killed on it, but I couldn’t help thinking during one of his mind-blowing solos that his phrasing style on the clarinet is very similar to his guitar playing. I guess you can take the instrument out of the musician, but you can’t take the musician out of the instrument. |
true.. we all know that much of what a musician plays especially when soloing or "freeforming" comes from his heart soul and to a lesser extent from the mind.. In my opinion, the hands are last, although we often give the hands most of the credit... So it would make sense that we have a similar feel on multiple instruments... I used to hear a similar feel and "soul" on 3 instruments when I listened to jerry garcia.. His guitar, steel, and banjo all sounded as they were supposed to and were played to good effect, but I sensed the spirit behind each instrument was one in the same...Not sure if any of this makes sense, but thats kind of how i think.. If your soul is evident in your steel guitar solos, it will be every bit as evident on guitar, IF you are of equal ability on each.. If you have been a seasoned guitarist for 30 years, but started steel 5 months ago, and in your first band playing steel, then all bets are off of course.. A similar skill set on either instrument will reflect whats inside the musicians heart no matter what form thats takes... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ken Morgan
From:
Midland, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2023 6:14 am
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This is a great topic.
My biggest ‘dang it’ from working on pedal steel is my inability to think like a steel guitarist..still thinking and approaching it like a 6 string guitarist with 50 years of muscle memory.
_________________
67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for
Ken Morgan
Midland, TX |
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Dave Stagner
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2023 10:03 am
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
That is a very astute observation by your old pal there, Bob.
When I saw the John Jorgenson Gypsy Jazz Quintet a few years ago, John played a few tunes on his clarinet. He absolutely killed on it, but I couldn’t help thinking during one of his mind-blowing solos that his phrasing style on the clarinet is very similar to his guitar playing. I guess you can take the instrument out of the musician, but you can’t take the musician out of the instrument. |
true.. we all know that much of what a musician plays especially when soloing or "freeforming" comes from his heart soul and to a lesser extent from the mind.. In my opinion, the hands are last, although we often give the hands most of the credit... So it would make sense that we have a similar feel on multiple instruments... I used to hear a similar feel and "soul" on 3 instruments when I listened to jerry garcia.. His guitar, steel, and banjo all sounded as they were supposed to and were played to good effect, but I sensed the spirit behind each instrument was one in the same...Not sure if any of this makes sense, but thats kind of how i think.. If your soul is evident in your steel guitar solos, it will be every bit as evident on guitar, IF you are of equal ability on each.. If you have been a seasoned guitarist for 30 years, but started steel 5 months ago, and in your first band playing steel, then all bets are off of course.. A similar skill set on either instrument will reflect whats inside the musicians heart no matter what form thats takes... bob |
I get this. Yes, Jerry sounded like Jerry whether he was on guitar, banjo, or steel, but he also stayed well within the traditional lines for each instrument most of the time. I just started playing steel about seven months ago after 40+ years of guitar, and I’m starting to get the “sounds like me” thing going. It’s interesting, because I feel my steel starting to bleed into my guitar, more than my guitar bleeding into my steel. Lead playing on guitar can be pretty scalar, but now I’m finding myself thinking less “major pentatonic” or “dorian” or whatever, and more chords and arpeggios. I’m definitely not thinking “I want to be in dorian mode here” on steel! Maybe I’ll be there someday, but it’s SUCH a chordal instrument.
And that leads to the goal for me… to sound unmistakably like myself, whether I’m playing guitar or steel or mandolin or anything else. And I don’t want to get there by making my steel playing sound like my guitar, so I deliberately look at the steel with fresh eyes.
_________________
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.
1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders |
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