Help me out guys. What am I missing not having the LKV?

Dan Najvar · From: McDade, TX

Just wondering if I REALLY need it. Please convince me one way or the other. Lol. I’m looking at guitars pretty hard right now. May even take a trip to Nashville to buy one since Ive never been there anyway.
Thank yall so much,
Dan

Frank Freniere · From: The First Coast

Well, there’s this: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=389440

Dennis Montgomery · From: Western Washington

Options. I don't use it a lot, but there are arrangements where it's the best way to get where I want to go. Better to have it and use it infrequently than not have it and need it Winking

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Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Dan -

The LKV (typically lowering 5th and 10th strings a half tone) most likely originated by players trying to emulate Tom Brumley's 3rd and 5th string passages on "Together Again".....but Brumley didn't have either of those changes on the steel that he used.

Although I have the 5th and 10th string half tone lowers on my steels, there are many players that have never added the 5th string (or 10th string) one-half tone drop because they know these "work-a-rounds" to accomplish playing the same notes:

Hope the above gives you some ideas as to how to achieve the same notes without having to incorporate a LKV on your steel.

Ron

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

For 10 string E9, 3pedals and 4knee-levers would be totally ok I think.
The LKV is nice to have in addition to LKL LKR RKL RKR but I dont think it is an absolute "must have"

My first pedal-steel, a Remington S10LG came with a 3+4 setup and I havent changed it even tho I have later aquired a JCH with 6 knee levers for the E9 and a Zumsteel S12extE9 with 7 knee levers. I play the Remington just as much as the other two and dont miss the extra levers.

Having a LKV to experiment with different changes is worth considering and if you intend to cover songs/melodies that are played by others that use a pedal steel where the LKV is beeing used frequently then you can be in for a challenge trying to figure a way to play the same thing with 4 knee levers instead of 5.

If you can afford a guitar with 5 knee levers, go for it.
If you cant, 4 knee levers will do just fine.

B.Erlandsen
Remington S10LG 3+4
JCH D10 8+8
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Dan -

One of the primary uses of the LKV is to obtain a 7th chord, two frets back from the Open position, via standard grips.

So at 3rd fret with LKV = an A7th chord

I'm gonna try to attach a quick and dirty example of LKV use in the opening phrases of "Together Again" - versus the use of a 'work-around position' - if you don't have the LKV

Hope this helps -

Ron

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Meh, I had it on several guitars.. Wasn't used much and wasn't really needed.. I don't have it these days, and don't miss it even a little... For years, I have been reading on this forum about how that lever is so important for "together again".. Yet, its my understanding that Tom recorded that part on a barely functional Fender cable job that he and Don Rich [or maybe it was Buck that helped him, not sure] cobbled together and got the A&B pedals working after Jay Macdonald trashed it, and thats all he used to play that song and solo.. I am only a journeyman level steel player, and can string together a pretty convincing "together again" solo, using just the A&B pedals.. I have NO idea at all where a lever that drops the B's would fit it.. I just don't hear that change in the original, but hey, I've been wrong before....
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Here's a few examples that use the LKV as split tuning but they can be played without it but perhaps not as smoothly. It's great for playing 4 note diminished chords and a 7b5 chord for starters.

Tab 651 Audio

Tab 651
Tab

Tab 14 Audio

Tab 14
Tab

Tab 356 Audio

Tab 14
Tab

Many more examples here:

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/C6th%20On%20E9th/C6th%20On%20E9th.html

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

How useful is the 10th string lower? We've seen how the 5th string lower is useful.

I think the only time I've used it is some songs in Buddy's "Expedition E9" tab.

My PP has the 5th lower, but not the 10th string lower. I've wanted to put it on there, but I need to take a lot of things off to get that lower (the bell crank) in there...so I hesitate because it plays so well...don't want to mess it up. I could use the split bell crank doo-dad, but I'd rather use a proper bellcrank on tis particular guitar.

My guitar also has this change on a staggered LKL - instead of the vertical - works OK - but I'd rahter have it LKV.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

As already stated, many setups (including mine) use the LKV to drop B to Bb, on string 5 and sometimes string 10. It's useful by itself - just considering the pedals-up situation, it flats the 5th. But I think the most common use is to split with the A pedal to give the C note. This is useful for a 4minor chord and in conjunction with the E=>Eb lever to get a full diminished 7th chord. If one is very facile with half-pedaling the A pedal, that will accomplish the same goal. So some people don't think it's a very important change. BTW, I think this is a lot more useful change if E=>Eb is on the right knee, Sho Bud style. With the typical Emmons E=>F on LKL and E=>Eb on LKR, it is quite a bit harder to use LKV with the E=>Eb change. Not impossible - I did that with my old Sierra, with the levers Emmons-style.

But that is not the only way LKV can be used. It depends on what's on the rest of the guitar and how all that is set up. There are a myriad of viable approaches.

I personally will not get another guitar without at least 4 pedals and 5 levers for E9. I want the options more changes give. But lots of great players do just fine with 3 pedals and 4 levers. And you certainly don't need that 5th lever to play Together Again like Tom Brumley did it.

Dan Najvar · From: McDade, TX

Wow guys yall have provided a lot of great info here. That is one of the things I really love about this forum. Gives me a bunch to ponder, but it sounds like I’ll be okay either way.

Thank all of you

Dan

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

personally, on its own, I never had much use for the B-Bb change... however, a change that I could live with and LIKE would be this-

LKV- string 5- B-Bb-A with feel stop
string 10- B-A...

I would use this a LOT more than a plain old B-Bb, especially in conjunction with my pedal 4 which drops string 6 a full tone.. Never used the Franklin change on its own all that much, but I do like it separated as I used to have it with the G# to F# lower on a pedal, and the B-A on LKV...It just worked better separated for me, and in conjunction with a feel stop for Bb on string 5, and the full tone lower on string 10, it would be a change that I would like for certain...
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Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Also note the IVmin position with this change gives a convenient I7 position if you move up two frets. Example, G7 chord / scale at the 5th fret.

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

I mostly use B-Bb to get a 9th chord like P5 on C6 (all the way across the neck if you combine it with the typical RKL) or split with the A pedal for a minor/maj7 chord - or to walk the root down from minor through min/maj7, min7, to min6.

For two-note voicings like Together Again I think the above-mentioned "work-arounds" (aka the original way to do it!) are easier and sound cooler anyway. I have heard it called "Negative Pedaling" although I can't recall where. But it's a great way to get lots of interesting changes that were eventually put on knee levers - like lowering 6 a whole tone.

Pete Bailey · From: Seattle, WA

I love my Bb lower change. I've moved it to RKR by the way, based on the late Mike Perlowin's recommendation. (Click his name for the link.)

I use it all the time, for augmented 1 chords (open with A+V), for minor 4 chords (AB+V) very often throwing in string 1 for the minor 6th stack. I use it for major flat five chords in the open position when heading to a transitive 2m7. I use it for 2mb5 chords on strings 765 when heading to the 5 for a resolution.

I use it as mentioned for that full-grip diminished as an alternate voicing to the F-lever diminished voicing, very often the voice leading for a particular song needs an interior pitch that the F-lever voicing doesn't provide.

I use it to voice line cliches from 6m down to 29 (strings 543 with A, then A+V, then open, then V). I use it for jazzy sharp 9 chords on strings 975 with ABD+V (my D lever, now on the vertical, raises string 7 1/2 step). Etc etc etc.

But most of all (and for this reason I will give away my V lever only when you pry it off of my cold, dead knees), I use it especially for dropping down two frets from open position for that gorgeous, classic pedal steel ninth chord, exactly as we all do from closed (AB) to AB+E.

The Bb lower lever is WAY under-rated. The more I think about it, the more ways I discover to use it.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

You are looking at it backwards, you should be asking " what can I add with the V lever that makes great musical sense ". How many fingers do you use to make a nice extended Guitar Chord ?

B to Bb seems to be the most common, I have 5 and 6 full tone lower on mine. ( Emmons L-II ) I use it often but will admit it takes some getting used to !
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Well, I'm just a "play it simple" guy, so I (I think this came from b0b) can just use it for an E->F#, so while holding A+B I can get a nice really smooth C-pedal accent stab by lifting and dropping my knee, rather than having to let up A+B and push down B+C...happened to be a thing that worked well in my alt-country band with those chords...
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