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Topic: String bends behind the bar - - HELP! |
David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2018 6:28 pm |
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Any tips for doing string bends behind the bar. I really just started trying these tonight and it sounds like I'm running over a cat in my truck - in slow motion.
I don't seen to have enough room to pull the string up a complete 1/2 step. I run into the next string (e.g. if I'm pulling the 2nd string, I seem to run into the 3rd string and have to stop before I've made it all the way on the 2nd string).
I tried on both a long scale and short scale lap steel with similar results.
And advice/tips would be greatly appreciated.
Dave |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 12:55 am
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Although I am by no means the best at the behind-the-bar string bends, I do use a few of them somewhat often and this is my advice:
1. Lighter string gauges help, so choose the lighter of the possible options when buying strings.
2. Using 6 string A6 tuning ( l-h C# E F# A C# E ) as an example, the bends I use most are:
a. bending the top string up a half step to get an augmented triad
A C# E to A C# E# (or F spelled wrong)
I push the top string away from me on this bend.
For the next two I pull the string toward me. I seem to favor the 3rd finger to do the bending, with possible help from the 4th finger - fingers 1, 2 and thumb have to hold the bar, 4 has to help mute too.
b. bending the 3rd string up a half step to get a 7th chord rooted on the 4th string
F# A C# E to F# A# C# E
c. bending the 4th string up a half step to get a 7th chord rooted on the 3rd string.
F# A C# E to G A C# E
The actual technique for me seems to involve careful attention to how I am pulling the string, including what may be a bit of upward pressure on the bar to keep the tone clean - and to get the note up to pitch without bending the adjacent string.
Intonation is also an issue - you have to have the bar placed well to begin with, and then you are altering your hand position as you bend notes. It takes practice!
I'm sure the real pros will offer better advice! |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 2:41 am
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Here's some info on string pulls from my book "Exploring C6th Lap Steel" for (low to High) C E G A C E:
Note: the C7 bend in the last illustrations should be a Bb rather than an A#
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 27 Jan 2018 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 5:52 am
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Forgive my ignorance...I haven't even heard of this technique before. The diagram is strangely confusing (almost as if it is looking up from the fretboard toward the hand maybe)? But the idea is grabbing the string behind the bar with one of the otherwise unoccupied fingers, and pulling to increase tension and sharp a single note, right? Fascinating stuff.
When I play surbahar (essentially a bass sitar) I have found that often the first fret on the lowest string is too sharp for a half step up (long story, but it has to do with distance to the fret and nut design) and I have to fake it by pressing down on the string behind the nut to sharp it to the right pitch. Similar technique, I suppose!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Bill McCloskey
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 6:29 am
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Sorry the diagram confused you, Nic, my goal was better information design. Sigh. Yes, one of the fingers that rest on the strings behind the bar are used to pull one or more strings sharp.
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| I think this technique is unnecessary and a recipe for playing out of tune! |
Joe Wilson is a fantastic player and teacher but I feel he's dead wrong here. In certain genre's it doesn't work but string pulling can easily be done consistently in tune with a little practice and it opens up a whole new palette of musical colors. You can't convince me that string pulls are unnecessary when Billy Robinson plays them!
http://mikeihde.com/brobinson.htm
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 6:36 am
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| I use a string pull for exactly one song: Troy's version of Pachelbel's canon. While there certainly people that can pull them off consistently, Martin Gross being one of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC-N4zl1QZo , I personally most people who try them are out of tune. It isn't a technique I spend a lot of time trying to master. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 6:40 am
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Hey its still early and I haven't finished my coffee, don't blame yourself for my lack of comprehension! 
I'll have to tinker with the technique. I assume it is used more in "mainland" styles, ie roots, country, etc? Hadn't ever observed it from Hawaiian music, which doesn't mean it isn't there...
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 7:29 am
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Jerry Byrd told me he never used it and never heard anyone use the technique in Hawaiian music. It works well for blues, country, roots, folk and even jazz.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 23 Jan 2018 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeff Garden
From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 8:05 am
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| Great minds think alike Jeff. Look at my post just above yours. |
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Rob Fenton
From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 8:07 am
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It would seem that the problem experienced by the original poster would be better solved by heavier string gauges than light. It may be easier to pull the lighter gauge but it requires more travel to achieve the pitch change due to the thinner core.
Beef up the gauges of the strings you are trying to pull and you stand a better chance of getting to pitch before you run into the next string. |
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Jeff Garden
From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 8:22 am
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You beat me to it, Bill. Martin is one of my absolute favorites...unbelievably smooth, clean, playing. He tunes his second string down a full tone to A for "Teach Your Children" which means you'll be tugging on it a lot throughout the tune. Martin and I swapped emails at one point and he recommended an .020 second string.
I tabbed out his version here if anyone wants to practice string pulls
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=311820&highlight=teach+children |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 23 Jan 2018 8:28 am
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Scale length effects string tension and is also a factor along with string gauges as is how low on the neck you can comfortably bend. Once you dial it all in for your personal instrument and practice to the point your bending finger isn't sore with every pull, it becomes a technique that's repeatable and reliable. There are a number of benders out now that make it easy to get these kinds of sounds but there's something really cool about being able to do it by hand with no additional bending device.
Martin does it so well! He's the best string-puller I've heard on Dobro and Billy R. gets the crown (IMHO) for electric steel.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 5:05 am
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Thanks so much for all the great input!
I'd never considered bending a string by PUSHING AWAY from me (vs. pulling towards me).
I love this instrument - so easy and yet so hard! |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 7:14 am
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I use string pulls a lot (albeit sneakily), but they are mostly on the first 2 strings of C6 only (E and C) and I use them mostly in simple harmony type things. I have a really good pedal steel emulation thing that is very simple, but takes a lot of practice to know exactly where to do it and to nail the pull (which is only a 1/2 step). I'll see if I can find a short demonstration video of it.
On the other hand, i have been developing a technique which has really worked it's way into my playing that I call "string pushing". It is a super cool thing, if I can say so!
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2018 8:57 pm
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I've used it on Dobro and lap steel since the 70's, mostly as a "faux Stringbender" style. Only for "not bending" licks - never for chords.
But I don't play many "chords" on Dobro or lap steel...or pedal steel...anyway.probably 95% of what I do involves banjo-roll style picking on all 3.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2018 10:33 pm
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| I tried it for a while but could never get my fingers in and out from between the strings smoothly enough and still maintain precise bar control to be worth messing with. I'd have to plan out what I was gonna do and then kinda have to "set up" for the move. Too fumbly, contrived and not much paydirt. Tried palm pedals too on a lap steel and that interfered with picking and blocking. For me, a better way to spend that energy was to play a tuning with some tritones like an 8 string 13th tuning and practice slanting in tune. I can get to things way more smoothly and a lot quicker. Anyhow to my mind, that's what a fixed tuning lap/console steel is all about - fetching the note combinations manually. If I want the string bending thing I'll just play E9 licks on my pedal steel. My 2 cents. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 26 Jan 2018 3:07 am
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Here's a badly over modulated excerpt from off-the-cuff improv I did a few years back on a D minor blues that shows behind-the-bar bends in context. I was out of tune on bend #1 then (I think) my ear dialed it in for the next few bends. I just view it as one more technique to have in one's quiver that you can use out not use as taste and context dictate. Not saying this was great playing - just an example of bends in a non-country context. And Doug - that video was fantastic! Loved it!
http://tinyurl.com/ybsqcevt
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 26 Jan 2018 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2018 5:07 am
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Agree that it is not an easy technique to master. And after a few attempts I noticed I'd pulled by lap steel out of tune. Yet, I'm going to keep working on it.
About 15 years ago I came to grips with the fact that my vibrato on guitar wasn't very good. So I resolved that for 1 year, if I was watching TV at night with my family, I'd hold a solid body unplugged electric and mute the strings with my picking hand while I silently and methodically wiggled each of my 4 fingers in turn on every fret of every string of the guitar. At the end of 12 months my vibrato was pretty good. Maybe I need to do a similar undertaking with behind the bar pulls (although I'd need to hear the pull to ensure it was at pitch, so I may have to work on this when I'm watching TV solo). |
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Roy Thomson
From:
Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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Posted 26 Jan 2018 12:26 pm
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I find one string pulls are as far as I want to go with this technique in order to get consistent accuracy. I have experimented with two strings (ie: E to A change) but it's a wild cannon for me.
I do a full tone string pull on the 6 string Leavitt Tuning (D-C-Bb-G-E-C#) ...PULLING the first string a full tone.
Having the pull on the 1st string makes is quite accessible. The method I use is hook the string with the ring finger of the left hand and pull towards me and also upwards into the steel..that way you get good contact and proper sustain. I am putting a link below of a song on which I use this pull frequently therein. It's fascinating to me how this country effect blends in with the chordal voicings of the Leavitt Tuning.
Link to: I'll Be Lonesome When You're Gone
http://picosong.com/wyp7u
Best Regards
Roy
_________________
Custom Tabs Various Tunings
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel |
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Jim Mckay
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 26 Jan 2018 1:09 pm
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| Roy Thomson wrote: |
I'll Be Lonesome When You're Gone
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That's very nice playing Roy, a pleasure to listen to
_________________
Canopus d-8
Excel Jerry Byrd frypan
T-8 Stringmaster |
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Don Crowl
From:
Medford, Oregon, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2018 8:16 pm
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| I seem to recall Billy Robinson has a custom built instrument with parallel or near parallel string spacing & he had a 10 string built on a 12 string neck. I don't recall if he mentioned string spacing measurements. Wouldn't wider string spacing reduce the effect of pulling into another string as opposed to narrow string spacing? That seems to be the case with a couple of my lap steels. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2018 12:20 am
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| Don Crowl wrote: |
| I seem to recall Billy Robinson has a custom built instrument with parallel or near parallel string spacing & he had a 10 string built on a 12 string neck. I don't recall if he mentioned string spacing measurements. Wouldn't wider string spacing reduce the effect of pulling into another string as opposed to narrow string spacing? That seems to be the case with a couple of my lap steels. |
The wider string spacing is helpful, especially on longer scale necks. My Stringmaster is 24.5†with 5/16†spacing at the bridge. I can only do half step raises on it, partly because I like heavier guage strings but also because of those specs. Attempts at full step pulls result in sore fingers and out of tune chords from (as you mention) pulling into adjacent strings. I think Mr. Robinson’s Derby 10-string is a 22.5†or 23†scale neck with 3/8†spacing. He is a wizard for sure, but those specs come in handy for all the slanting and pulling he does.
PS - Great post, Andy Volk! |
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