Help with U12 e9/b6 copedent

Alan Struthers · From: New Jersey, USA

I have ordered an ExStar E9/B6 12 string and Mitsuo is asking me for the copedent. When I first tried to discuss this with him, my understanding was that he built them just one way but apparently I was wrong because now he is asking for my copedent. I have been reading the discussions here about the U12's tunings and I am confused.

Here's my situation: I currently play an S10 from GFI with what I think is the Emmons setup: ABC pedals in that order and the E changes on the left knee levers. I have not played a C6 neck and don't have a double-neck guitar. I want the B6 to simulate the C6 sound on some Western swing or jazz songs. There is no PSG store or teacher near me, although I am taking remote lessons.

My questions:
1. Is there anything like a "standard" E9/B6 copendent?
1.a. Would it be the Williams one that bOb posted (https://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/E9_B6_Universal_Tuning.htm)?
1.b. Would that be a reasonable place for me to start on a new instrument (until I figure out some personal preferences)?

2. If there is no real standard, is there a copedent that would most easily allow me to transition from the E9 neck to the U12? (And I'm assuming that the term U12 is synonymous with a 12-string E9/B6 guitar. Tell me if I'm wrong.)
2.a. With that copedent (whatever it may be), would I be able to take advantage of existing instructional materials for the C6 neck, knowing that I will have to make adjustments for some levers and string positions?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. I really feel lost here.
Alan
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Alan Struthers · From: New Jersey, USA

I forgot to mention that my new instrument is an 8 X 5.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Hi Alan
I'm just about to turn in and I'll give you more tomorrow, but in the meantime, yes the Williams setup would be as good a starting point as any. The 8 pedals do the same as on a D10, and you can get stuck right in to C6 tuition (up one fret of course!) Smile

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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Here's a thread that explores very different and personalized approaches, and some discussion around them..

It touches on some of the longstanding debates - eg.position of E raises and lowers for example. This is a fundamental decision on either Uni or E9 that can affect much - from access to key lever combinations, to intuitiveness, to ergonomic challenges.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=281278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25

While my original U12 coped remains "home" to me, I ultimately concluded I was becoming a master of neither E9 or C9. Thus I've been in a time-out away from Uni, learning instead on an 8x8 D10 to improve my orientation around more conventional tuning and copeds.

It's a journey no matter what you choose. Tbere are few perfect answers in music and copeds, only preferences.

Alan Struthers · From: New Jersey, USA

Tom said: While my original U12 coped remains "home" to me, I ultimately concluded I was becoming a master of neither E9 or C9. Thus I've been in a time-out away from Uni, learning instead on an 8x8 D10 to improve my orientation around more conventional tuning and copeds.

Thanks, Tom. My rationale for the U12 vs the D10 is that (1) I'd rather handle less weight and (2) I'm practically starting from scratch on either C6 or B6 so it didn't make sense to learn C6 and later switch to the U12's B6. FYI, I am considering this instrument as "2 necks in one" more than a complete new endeavor.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I approached mine as "one big tuning" and departed often from convention in pedal and lever assignments to "follow my ear", and it ultimately became its own animal, but relatively limited in its ability to mimic "modern E9" which benefits greatly from the s9 D string.

As for a "Two necks in one" approach:

As you are probably well aware, the excel offers some "cross-over" technology to change the coped assignments through physically "shifting" a gearshift from B6 to E9. My understanding is that this is "more than" a lever lock for the E-lowers.

I don't exactly know the extent and limitations of the crossover tech - but if you know or find out - wouldn't mind an explanation.

There is considerable merit to the "two necks in one" approach for modern E9 copeds / playing. If possible to configure the B6 then "shift" into a standard well equipped Extended E9 complete with s9 D string and Franklin coped (for example) - that would be amazing and incredibly useful.

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

Jeff Newman's E9/B6 is a good universal copedant. It can easily be used with most E9 and C6 instructional material.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Don't be confused by the Excel options.

They do indeed offer a very sophisticated model that retunes the entire instrument from E9 to C6 at the throw of a lever. It doesn't sound as though it has a hope in heck of working, but owners assure me that it functions perfectly.

They also offer a conventional B6/E9 with an E-lever lock. (I have this fitted to mine, although I never use it.)

These two choices have nothing to do with each other.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

On a quite separate issue, I am firmly of the view that whatever choices you make about the placement of levers, the E lowers are best put on RKR. This gives you total freedom of movement across the pedals.

Many players are so attached to the Emmons setup that they insist on retaining LKR for lowering the Es. How they can rock their left foot between the various B6 pedals while constrained in that way is beyond me Smile

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Alan Struthers · From: New Jersey, USA

First of all, I love your motto: Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!

And thanks for your suggestion about the E lowers and your other ideas.
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Alan Struthers · From: New Jersey, USA

My latest dispatch from Mitsuo says he uses the Jeff Newman U12 coped, but I can't seem to find a version that is aimed at an 8X5. On his website (https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/jeff-newman-tuning-charts/) bOb shows one for a 7X4, but I am puzzled by the identical changes on string 2 with both left knee levers. (If you're reading this, Bob, is that a typo?)

So finally to my question: Where can I find a Newman copedent for an 8X5 U12? (And yes, I have asked Mitsuo for his and I am waiting for a response.)

Further info, perhaps helpful: I have compared bOb's 7X4 Newman coped with the Williams Guitar 7X5 coped and pedals 1 thru 7 plus the RKL lever are the same on both. So I am really most curious about pedal 8, the 3 left knee levers, and the RKR lever.

Thanks again to all of you who have posted here to help me. I really appreciate it.

Alan
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Here is some information on my dive into S12 Universal.

I bought a S12 U GFI ULTRA about 5 years ago and started to comparing, GFI, Williams, Newman's, Sierra, Carl Dixon's Excel, Joe McHam's BMI 12U and Ernie Bovines EX E9th and Mr. John McClung's 12 string E9th.

Mr. Jeff Newman's copendent was based on using, DAY C-B-A setup with 7 pedals and 4 knee levers. Mr. Newman's vertical knee lever was 12" or more long and ran across all the pedals till he could use it with any pedal in combination. It was actually located near the RKL. Raise E's is RKL, Lower E's is RKR. There is no LKR so he could move his left foot to play all pedals. Actually Newman's 4th pedal is some C6th copendents 8th pedal.

The only company I found that used 8 pedals in a 12U tuning was Sierra. It is based on EMMON's A-B-C. On pedal 4 it changes Strings 6 & 10 to A#. 5-6-7 are the same as Mr. Newman's 5-6-7. And Pedal 8 changes String 9 to C, 11 to D# and 12 to G#, Like Mr. Newman's 4 pedal.

After scratching my head and losing sleep and I have played Day Set up for years, I Chose Mr. Newman's copendent and am forging ahead. I am planning on adding the long vertical lever, I now have a short vertical
I obtained by reworking LKR.

Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

If you're looking for a "standard" U12 setup, this could be it! It's broadly in line with what Bobby just posted above. It's a two-necks-in-one rather than a one-big-tuning, although there is lot of overlap. It embodies two principles - as previously mentioned, the E lowers go best on RKR; and the Day setup for the E9 pedals is superior, as the A pedal can be used in conjunction with the B6 pedals whereas the C has no purpose.

Observe that the pedals are named after their traditional function rather than their actual placement (the old P4 that was common on D10s has mostly gone out of fashion).

The centre lever cluster is only necessary if you want access to jazz chords - it gives flat and sharp fifths with the 9th chord on P5. The the centre vertical lowers string 5 in the usual way, but also raises 9 a half-step. This avoids having to use the full P8 just for that very common pull. If you don't need the centre cluster then a long Newman-style vertical will suffice.

My personal setup goes a step further and puts P6 on RKR on a half-stop. This allows me rock between 5&7 in the same manner as A&B, but will not be to everyone's taste so I won't cause confusion by posting it unless there is a huge clamour to see it Smile

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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I would stick with the ABC E9th pedal and lever setup if that is what you are used to.
I would also recommend Jeff Newman's method of putting P8 to the left of P5.
I use Jeff's method of raising the E's on LKL, and lowering the E's on RKR, but that is more of a personal decision you will have to make.
Mitsuo has a nice Lever lock system. I like the Lever Lock because sometimes I lock into the 6th mode for long periods of time and don't want to hold that lever. It's a feature you can use or not use, as needed.
Make sure to tell Mitsuo to adjust the "Splits" so they are working properly when he sets it up. The Splits are so you can get a C note on the B strings with A+(B to Bb lever), and also get a G note on the G# strings with B+(G# to F# lever).
I once played an Excel S12U with 9x8 that has a center knee lever cluster (similar to Ian's setup). That is another way to go.

Here is a pic from Jeff Newman's 7x4 S12U copedant from his S12U book (I need to get a better pic):

Here is Larry Bells great U12 site with plenty of S12U info:
http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm

Here is the Sierra S12U copedant that keeps E lowers on LKR, and you use a lever lock to lock into the B6th mode, and flip the lever up out of the way (you could do this on an Excel):
http://www.sierrasteels.com/support/copedant-charts.html

Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

Alan, go with the set-up Pete just set you. It is the Jeff Newman, It doesn't matter if your pedals are Emmons or Day. It is without a doubt the best for either.
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Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

Alan, Sorry, I was wrong. that is not Jeff's . D on the 9 string and 2 string is on the LKL, E raise if on the RKL, and E Lower is RKR and it lowers 2 to C#. I have had every setup, on mine as mentioned. I feel this to be the best, and it is Jeff, except he used the Day pedal. His VKL only change the 5th string. Later I think he added the B pedal split.
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974.

Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

Alan, go with the set-up Pete just set you. It is the Jeff Newman, It doesn't matter if your pedals are Emmons or Day. It is without a doubt the best for either.
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I will take a better picture of Jeff's Copedant that is in his S12U book tonight.
He also shows the Day setup, just below the pic I posted.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

I've used this on all my U12 guitars.

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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Here is Jeff Newman's tuning, From the forum and Jeff Newman's 12 Universal video I put put together, His 4th pedal is actually the 8th pedal on many C6th copendents. This one also has his sweetened tuning readable on this copy.
If you now have a Franklin pedal on your present guitar. A 7 pedal Universal tuning, With an O Franklin pedal beside the A pedal, Would be a use for the 8th pedal, Could thicken the pot more. Good Luck on this project.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Here are the 7x4 setups that Jeff listed in his S12U book.
When I ordered my Emmons S12U in 1982 it had this setup, but also had string-1 F#-to-G on P5, which gives a nice high note to the P5+P6 diminished chord.
I have since extended most of the E9th changes down to the lower Strings, string-11 raises and lowers E's, String 12 lowers from B-to-A on the A pedal, LKV lowers all three B's-to-Bb, and my Excel S12U has a separate Lever Lock that lowers Strings 4 and 8 to Eb, and string 2 to C# without affecting and other pedal or lever.

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Well, this thread couldn't be better timed, from my point of view. Coming from 10 string set ups, I've been thinking a great deal recently about the positioning of LKR on U12 copedants, and, whether it makes more sense to simply not have one, ala Newman's set up. Assuming you lower Es on the right somewhere, I'd think not having any LKR would be the most ergonomically uninhibiting.
I'm primarily familiar with Emmons levers. That said, I can't imagine how having any kind of LKR on a Uni would not get in the way. Unless you get your leg on the other side of it to play B6 stuff, or if perhaps it was located a little further to the right and maybe closer to the front of the guitar- more like a single lever centre cluster, if that makes sense. This realm is academic to me at best, so I'm keen to learn more about what works for you all who do in fact have a LKR on a uni set up.

Kerry Johnson · From: the Bay Area, CA

This question is for EXCEL owners.

Since the original Post here is referring only to the EXCEL ExStar S-12 Universal model,

and regarding:
the location of EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism...

Does this require that the "E-to-Eb Knee-Lever” has to be located RKR ?

or can that Knee-Lever alternatively be located RKL ?
with the EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism ?
.

Derek Puckett · From: Cookeville Tn

I would suggest Cowboy eddies tuning aswell.

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