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Topic: Copedent Advice - Lower 6 or Raise 7? |
Samuel Goldstein
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 25 May 2023 8:50 am |
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Hi Folks,
I've got a 4x5 Justice Pro Lite on order and I've been pondering the copedent quite a bit lately. As far as I can tell (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), the Justice comes standard lowering 6 on the same change as raising 1 and 2. This is generally fine for me, as having that 6 lower seems very useful, especially when split with the B pedal to get the G. However, after browsing the forum for a bit Paul Franklin and others make a very good point that lowering 6 on that change instead of raising 7 creates a good deal of dissonance with string 1 and removes the option for some nice maj7 voicings with the AB pedals down. I'd love to have that option, but at the same time I don't want to lose out on having the G# lower, especially because I'd like to have that split G to get a minor chord in the open position or dom7 in the pedals down position. Anyone have any insight on which would generally be more useful? Or if there's anyways to get both changes across between various pedals and levers? I'll also specify that this is my first pro steel with more than one knee lever, so I haven't had the chance to play with either change. Any insight is appreciated.
- Sam |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 May 2023 12:39 pm
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Samuel:
I think opinions will be divided. Speaking for myself, I raise 7 a whole step and, if I want that b7th note, I can easily half-engage that KL with pedals down. (My 1,2,7 raises are on my LKL2.)
I can get an exact dominant 7th chord and I can get the pretty dissonance that comes from strings 6 and 7 with pedals down and LKL2. It goes well with the same harmonic effect between string 1 and 2, and 3 and 4; that major 7th.
I use it a lot and, for me, lowering 6 (split with the B pedal) would have limited uses; I see it as a one-trick-pony.
Smarter guys than me, though, lower the 6th so take it with a grain of salt. I just think there's more music available the way I have it.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Samuel Goldstein
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 25 May 2023 1:26 pm
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| Thanks for the response Roger, what you said lines up roughly with what I gathered from other posts on the forum. It's definitely a sound that I'm after. Lots to think about. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 May 2023 1:33 pm
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I lower 6 on a pedal and raise 7 on a lever.
It may be redundant,but it works for me. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 May 2023 2:15 pm
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Best of both worlds, Michael. 
IF I had a spare KL/pedal, that would be an option. My P4 lowers 9,6,3 a half-step and all my KLs are spoken for.
Samuel:
Much of this depends on your musical priorities. Getting those 'pop' sounds is important to me but, honestly, you won't go far wrong either way. There's still bags of stuff most of of us have yet to find with just 3+1 but I love all these choices. I'm lowering 2,9 and 10 on RKR and I use that low A chord a lot but Lloyd Green manages without it. 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 25 May 2023 2:32 pm
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Samuel, you may get a lot of opinions on this one. The first time I had a guitar that had the 1&2 raise and the 6th string lower on it, I intuitively said, this is wrong as they clashed and got in the way of each other... You'd want 1&2 raised and play the 6th string without anything on it and really couldn't comfortably, at least thats my experience with it.
I still raise 1&2, but now also raise the 7th a half/whole as well as raise the 9th a tone. NO Clashes and very utilitarien... It's like 2 levers in one... I can use the top 6 strings the way I want without issue and 7-10 the same way... In the open with 9 and 7 raised you get a nice Maj7, (1) with AB down and 9 and 7 raised you get a really nice dissonant Maj7th (4) if I did the math right... Help me out here Roger LOL
I still lower 6 a whole, but do that on my Vertical where I also lower 9 a half for a really nice 6/9 chord... And I still lower 5&10 a half, but on the pedal just to the left of the A pedal.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 25 May 2023 3:09 pm
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I use 'em both. Sure, the 6th lower on the same lever as 1&2 raise doesn't work if you pick those string together, but who does that? It's kind of a trade off in order to have the change available... you just have to avoid the other strings.
It's common in many mfgs. factory stock set ups. The combination of AB pedals with the 6 string split & whole tone lower is a must for me.
I also put a raise on 7 F# to G# with a half stop at G.
I use it on the same lever as the 2 & 9 lower.
The maj7th with the whole tone raise with pedals A&B is really nice and pretty and you can get the 7th tone at the half stop.
I think it's the effect created by raising or lowering a note into the chord you have happening from a certain direction that makes interesting differences rather than just having a note available.
No reason not to have both. Not that big a deal to add the 7th string raise on most guitars as they are not normally loaded up with changes.
Of course, it all depends on how you play and what you look for in the process.
Just add a pull train, tune it up and you're done. |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 26 May 2023 4:02 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
I also put a raise on 7 F# to G# with a half stop at G.
I use it on the same lever as the 2 & 9 lower.
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That’s the Bobbe Seymour Z Lever. It can be very useful.
https://pedalsteelmusic.com/?p=213
_________________
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 May 2023 10:17 pm
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I'm gonna repeat what I said on that other thread -
| Roger Rettig on other thread wrote: |
| Undisputable logic re: raising 7 rather than lowering 6, too. |
I believe I clearly understand the rationale to not prefer to have the string 1 and 2 F# and G# raises on the same lever that lowers string 6 to F#. But add me to the list of knuckle draggers (it's a joke, son) that will never lose the string 6 G#=>F# change. I use it constantly, and the way I have my E9 neck set up, the only reasonable place I have to put the string 1 & 2 raises on a ≤5 lever guitar is on LKR where my string 6 G#=>F# change lives (my E=>Eb is on RKL - opposite knee from G#=>F#, essential to get the full potential of the string 6 lower). If the string 6 change really interferes with the string 1 and 2 changes so much that I'm willing to lose it temporarily, I'll just back out the string 6 nylon.
I honestly think that the modern standard for E9 is getting more and more to be 4 pedals and 6 levers. I only have one E9 guitar like this, an SD-10 Mullen G2, and I need to get two additional pull trains so I can move the String 1 & 2 changes to LKR2 to go with the solo string 7 F#=>G# change that it came with. Of course, this guitar came with the string 1 & 2 changes on the same lever as the string 6 full lower. A lot of guitars come like this.
If I can find a LKR lever kit for a second LKR on my D10 Zum, I'll do the same - I would love to get the strings 1&2 changes off LKR, which does the string 1/2/6 changes on E9 plus the A=>Bb changes on C6. The Zum is a great mechanism and can handle it, but it's stiffer than I'd like.
I know that the marginal utility of the string 6 G#=>F# change is not that high for everybody. And yes, I know that one can get the same technical change with the string 7 F#=>G# by simply reversing the thought process. But what I really miss is the general fluidity that having that lower on the same string that the B pedal is on brings, plus the wide variety of moves possible with the E=>Eb lever. I tried subbing the string 7 full raise, and I really felt a chasm.
So push come to shove, string 6 G#=>F# stays no matter what. Note that Buddy's standard setup (see chart below) didn't have the string 1 F#=>G# pull but did have the string 2 D#=>E pull AND the string 6 G#=>F# pull on the same lever:
Except for the reversal of LKR and RKL plus the addition of both string 1 and string 2 raises on a couple of my guitars, my basic 5-lever E9 setup is Buddy's, verbatim. In fact, my C6 is almost, if not exactly, the same as Buddy's, at least on the one guitar that has the capacity for it. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 27 May 2023 1:30 pm
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| If you go with raising both strings 1 and 7 a whole step, see if they can put a half stop on them so you can get a Dom7 chord in the AB pedal down position. It'll double the usefulness of that change. I find it difficult to try to feel the half step without halving a half stop on it. |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 31 May 2023 9:24 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Best of both worlds, Michael.
My P4 lowers 9,6,3 a half-step and all my KLs are spoken for.
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Roger - could you elaborate a bit on your 3rd string lower...what are you using it for? |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 31 May 2023 11:00 am
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This is my LDG set up for 20 years>
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 1 Jun 2023 4:09 am
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Joe:
Lowering 9 and 6 is becoming more popular. I like it for getting the m7b5 (C#m7b5 at zero) on the low strings.
Then I thought: why not lower the 3rd to match the 6th? Now I have that chord (it also serves as an A9th) across strings 9-3.
I consulted Randy Beavers, asking if he could see a problem with lowering both G#s. He replied that he'd deliberately omitted it in order to get quartal runs. I defer to Randy's mastery of E9th and I'm bearing his words in mind. For now, though, I like my choice.
In a few months, though, who knows? These 'outlying' pulls are always a work in progress for me.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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