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Topic: Do you or dont you ? |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 6 May 2023 5:31 pm |
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| just kinda curious here , do you read music ? or are you a play it by ear kinda person ? Can you play a chord scale and know what you are playing ? Do you ever practice arpeggios ? |
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Thornton Lewis
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 6 May 2023 5:42 pm
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| Badly,yes,yes,yes. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 May 2023 1:08 am
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Its an interesting question, yes I can sight read but haven't in decade, and don't want to either !
Playing by ear ? Uhmmm... What we do is hear the relationships of the chords, and apply it to the Instrument, its THEORY whether we want to recognize it or not. If we hear 3 chords, C,F and G, and immediately understand the 1,4,5 relationships, we are playing by theoretical EAR. We don't need to read any music but we must be able to HEAR and distinguish the relationships of what we hear. This isn't just STEEL Guitars, it any Instrument, the language is exactly the same. Ok, but we need to understand and know how to apply it to our instrument. Knowing the language is one thing, applying it to the instrument is another thing. Thats what we study and practice, applying it to the Instrument.
The late great Maurice Anderson used to call it Perfect Practice. Meaning , are you learning the Instrument or just learning songs ?
Scales, ? Also an interesting question- For me, YES as I have been a scales practitioner since my earliest days . It does a couple of things for us, obviously we can learn fret board positions, hear and see where the notes lay and then its a great routine to keep us limbered. I'm talking single note scales and/or simple scales derived from chord positions. Any instrument.
5 min a day will keep us in excellent music health for decades ! Sure, boring as all get go, but for 5 min a day it's a great practice routine. Eye's hands and ears.
Have fun!
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 May 2023 3:08 am
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| All of the above |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 7 May 2023 5:10 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
Its an interesting question, yes I can sight read but haven't in decade, and don't want to either !
Playing by ear ? Uhmmm... What we do is hear the relationships of the chords, and apply it to the Instrument, its THEORY whether we want to recognize it or not. If we hear 3 chords, C,F and G, and immediately understand the 1,4,5 relationships, we are playing by theoretical EAR. We don't need to read any music but we must be able to HEAR and distinguish the relationships of what we hear. This isn't just STEEL Guitars, it any Instrument, the language is exactly the same. Ok, but we need to understand and know how to apply it to our instrument. Knowing the language is one thing, applying it to the instrument is another thing. Thats what we study and practice, applying it to the Instrument.
The late great Maurice Anderson used to call it Perfect Practice. Meaning , are you learning the Instrument or just learning songs ?
Scales, ? Also an interesting question- For me, YES as I have been a scales practitioner since my earliest days . It does a couple of things for us, obviously we can learn fret board positions, hear and see where the notes lay and then its a great routine to keep us limbered. I'm talking single note scales and/or simple scales derived from chord positions. Any instrument.
5 min a day will keep us in excellent music health for decades ! Sure, boring as all get go, but for 5 min a day it's a great practice routine. Eye's hands and ears.
Have fun! |
It’s not “Practice that make Perfect” but “PERFECT Practice which make Perfect”… Maurice’s wisedom indeed.
I was only shortly exposed to reading at a guitar music school early on. Being a teen at that time, as rebelious as they came, I declared proudly “we Rockabillies don’t need no stinkin’ sheet music”.
I may have been right, but nowadays I WISHED I could read.
Even if I stand by what I’ve said it Decades ago; “standard notation is but TAB for a piano”… as it’s witten in C and the 11 other keys presented by modifying C, which is NOT how our brain perceives music.
But while I can learn most by ear, even off other instruments, I have learned to “read” off the fingering of keys-players. My life would be richer did I know how to read.
I am pushing my 12 year old (piano) to better his reading skills. And he hates me for it every time I do remind him to.
Producers, should be able to read too, as they may have to arrange and convey their desires to a variety of instrumentalists.
Does reading apply well to the PSG? I guess one could theorize how it could be applied and there will be the one or other who will be able to play from sheet music. After al, most any mental acrobacy can be learned, eventually. But I don’t think that PSG is an ideal instrument for it, as it would require several stages of “conversions”, besides having to deal with the quicksandish fluidity of a pedal-tuning which obscures things further like a dark street corner’s shell game.
I dom’t know if Paul Franklin can read, but I wouldn’t be surprised that he did and still would as he was Decades ago often mentionned as a proponent of a scalar and modal approach. Yet in his online course he shortly alludes to a change from scales to organizing his playing rather derived off chords “… afterall, this is a one-finger guitar!”… alluding to the fact tha scales don’t lay out over the necks as well as chords. The instrument -C6th even more so than E9th- is a chordal instrument with 4, 5 and 6 note chords (no pedals engaged) which offers a real easy access to what’s left and right off repeated root positions spread over an octave, from which “pockets” or “boxes” form.
But I still wished I could read, at least so little so it would not develop into a crutch.
The more you know, the better.
… JD.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Last edited by J D Sauser on 7 May 2023 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 7 May 2023 5:19 am
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I play by ear. I started in the 50's when it wasn't a requirement to read music in Country Music. I can do scales and tell you what note it is and know the number system.
At 85 my playing days are over so its a non issue for me. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 7 May 2023 5:36 am
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I'm not a great sight reader but literally every song I learn, I learn from the sheet music. It allowed me to bring to life some of the early compositions by Eddie Alkire and record them. Having to learn a tune by ear would be much more difficult for me. But I also break tunes down into spreadsheets to help me visualize the structure of tune. For instance, I'm working on Crazy, i used the sheet music to create the following chart so I could visual the overall structure of the tune. :
But reading sheet music is essential for me. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 7 May 2023 7:37 am
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If I could go back in time and have a conversation with 13-year old Roger Rettig, I'd urge him, implore him, even, to learn to sight-read.
When I took jobs that required reading (countless musicals like Hello, Dolly, Mame, Fiddler..., etc., etc.,). I'd ask for the guitar book ahead of time (a week, maybe) which allowed me breathing space to get to grips with any tricky parts. There are always tricky parts!!
So no, I don't sight-read (unless it's a single-note line and not too far above or below the treble-clef) but I never got tired of the spectacle of the horn and woodwind guys who'd show up at the first band-call and wouldn't even open their music until the conductor raised his baton. They'd read their parts and play them flawlessly. Me? I'd had the music for a week but was hanging on for grim death!
I wish I'd learned that skill when it would have been easy to assimilate.
My career has been satisfactory because of my good ear and despite my poor reading.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 May 2023 8:27 am
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| Thornton Lewis wrote: |
| Badly,yes,yes,yes. |
Same here. Also, what Tony P and JD said. I also see great value in tablature combined with standard notation. Tablature alone is the worst idea in music writing ever.
My reading skills peaked when I was learning solo guitar pieces 20 years ago, mostly in guitar friendly keys like A-C-D-E-G. Nowadays, it’s 90% by ear, on both steel and guitar. |
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Samuel Phillippe
From:
Douglas Michigan, USA
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Posted 7 May 2023 10:19 am
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never was able to. I can tell if it is jumping two notes or one while lookinh at it, that's about all.
Am self taught starting with a uke. I was given a book with three songs, including chords.I knew the tunes so just sang the song and played (tried) the chords. About a year later my dad was playing with a couple of his cronies and I asked him if I could have a guitar.....that was it. Started with an acoustic 4 string Tenor at 13 years old and graduated to 6 string electric at 14 and then started sitting in with my dad'as group. Would follow his fingering for the chords.....
Fast forward to 84 years old, still can't site read but have a better understanding of written music....
Always wished I had taken lessons but still play bt ear.
It's the only way I know.
Sam |
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Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
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Posted 7 May 2023 11:04 am Reading
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Yes..been reading music since 4th grade..horns, piano and guitar.. 
_________________
Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 7 May 2023 4:15 pm
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| I play by ear. When I started playing steel 23 years ago, I would listen to songs on the radio and country records and would first listen to steel parts in a song, then after listening the first time, I'd play along and see how close I could come to the steel parts on the records. For instrumentals, I memorized the melody. |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 8 May 2023 3:24 am
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When I was gigging a lot half of my work was on 6-string. Mostly jazz, club and pit-crew shows that almost all the time required reading. Now, guitar players were a dime-a-dozen back then (probably cheaper now) and many could play circles around me. But here’s my point: I would often get the call because I could read the charts and they couldn’t.
Make no mistake, I was good at reading lines but NEVER at the level of the monster horn and keyboard players I played with. However, I was very good at sight-reading complex chord charts and when you’re in a rhythm section you better know how to do that. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 8 May 2023 4:34 am
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| Eric Philippsen wrote: |
When I was gigging a lot half of my work was on 6-string. Mostly jazz, club and pit-crew shows that almost all the time required reading. Now, guitar players were a dime-a-dozen back then (probably cheaper now) and many could play circles around me. But here’s my point: I would often get the call because I could read the charts and they couldn’t.
Make no mistake, I was good at reading lines but NEVER at the level of the monster horn and keyboard players I played with. However, I was very good at sight-reading complex chord charts and when you’re in a rhythm section you better know how to do that. |
Speedy West was fired from a West Coast big band as after playing with them quite succesfully for some time, when it was discovered that he was faking being able to read, which he couldn’t.
Buddy Emmons learned to read (I don’t know to what degree, but learning about his obsession with perfection off his biography, I wouldn’t be surprised that at least well) in his California days, way after having become famous.
So, yeah…!
It dawned on me the first time I was given the oportunity to play along (rhythm Jazz guitar) in a Big Band and participated in their practice, and realized “oh my Gosh of course, them horns play chords each man playing ONE note in the chord! Everybody has a clearly defined “position” in there. You HAVE to know how to read notes and timing to fit in!
… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 May 2023 6:30 am
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| Speaking of reading skills, there are 3 other questions in the OP. They are more related to music theory and comprehension than they are about sight reading. For example, you can know that you are playing an arpeggiated 8th-note triplet over a Dm7 chord without having any reading skills, or in addition to it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 May 2023 6:49 am
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The first time I met Buddy Emmons was in London in the early-'70s. He was touring on bass with Roger Miller at the time.
I took the opportunity to ask him about his then-recent recording session with Ray Charles and he went on to speak about a call he'd had from Henry Mancini!
At the studio, he was handed notation. He 'fessed up immediately to Mancini and said he couldn't read. HM simply played the steel part he'd written out on piano and Buddy was able, of course, to grasp it immediately.
Interestingly, E told me, it was well arranged for steel and took advantage of basic pedal-changes. Buddy asked how he'd known how to do that and Mancini replied that he'd watched Emmons playing a gig. His ears told him some of what was possible when using pedals and knee-levers!
Our Hero was pretty impressed! Like the Ray Charles session (Volcanic Action...), the Mancini encounter was fresh in his mind and I was lucky enough to hear about it first-hand.
(That was the night I'd dared to take my 3+1 ZB Student out on a gig for the first time; I obviously had no inkling that Buddy Emmons would happen to be out in the crowd when I took my first stumbling steps as a 'steel player'. He was kindness itself, though, and was very careful to sound encouraging about my efforts. When I returned to the stage for our next set, I doggedly stayed on Telecaster!!!  )
My impression remains that Buddy never became a sight-reader. He may well have achieved a basic level, and he certainly had a handle on theory, but it's my belief that he was essentially an ear-player for his entire career. The Mancini session was an exception and he had help on that one.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10, JCH D10, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 8 May 2023 7:29 am
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I was asked to furnish the music for a wedding.
My guitar slinging buddy joined me along with a bass player.
After the 1st practice session the bass player dropped out because he only played by ear and couldn't keep up. 
Erv |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 May 2023 8:54 am
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Yes to all, although I don’t practice scales, exactly. I know where all the notes in every scale are, and use them and chromatic leading tones to connect chords, which is the approach that fits the music I play.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 8 May 2023 8:59 am
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I’m glad I taught myself to read music because without it I wouldn’t be able to play some of the music that excites me most. I’m not a good sight unseen reader, but with effort I can make sense of a score. It really helps to be able to listen to it though. Having a good ear and the ability to read/write is a major advantage.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 8 May 2023 2:59 pm
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| ....Do you ever practice arpeggios ? |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Speaking of reading skills, there are 3 other questions in the OP. They are more related to music theory and comprehension than they are about sight reading. For example, you can know that you are playing an arpeggiated 8th-note triplet over a Dm7 chord without having any reading skills, or in addition to it. |
I was going to address this, be went lost writing about the first part.
YES, to me the steel guitar and C6th particularly, is laid out in chords... PSG C6th in (open) CM a 4 note chord plus D as the 9th, Am (it's relative minor) a 4 note chord plus the D the 13th, FM a 5 note chord with a M7 and 9th plus D as a 6th, and Dm7/9th (it's relative minor) 6 note chord. With that many degrees in two relative Maj/min sets a 4th respectively a 5 apart of each other, considering approach notes, enclosures, turning 6ths into b7ths, M7ths into 1's etc... most other degrees are quite readily available at the nudge of a bar tip. And thus I think that knowing the ROOTS, then the basic chord tones (3rds, 5th) and then the added degrees in a straight bar is essential and opens the path to create playing "pockets" or "boxes" (as guitarists tend to call them).
E9th is a different animal but the same hold true there too but maybe not as pivotal as on C6th.
Paul Franklin in his online course (E9th) mentions: "... you HAVE to know your "intervals" (by which he I would believe he meant Degrees)... see that's why Lloyd Green could play all these things, because he knew the "intervals" of each chord.
I agree, what we perceive as the musical message or what Blues and Jazzmen call "say" is told be the sound of degrees. Just like a V7th chord has it's very particular sound, a 1, b3, M3, 5 will sound bluesy, while the almost same 1, b3, M3, 4, 5 will have spell JazzBlues. No matter if we play it over the I chord the IV or even the V chord.
This has always been my beef with standard musical notation because it's all in C or 11 modifications of C. While degrees from scales, easily found on the steel from chords' degrees are much more expressive.
I recently posted an analysis of 5 solos over ii-, V, I written out in degrees and then also quantified the degrees played over each chord: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=391156
Written out in note (names) that information would not be as visible and as easily transposable.
When you know your degrees, you can read from that chart and find many ways to play these solos in any key.
At the end of all arguments, unless one is one of the few ultra-gifted and young started artists which can play without much being able to explain what they are doing and why, one has to have at least one SYSTEM that works well with the chosen instrument and lets the player build upon it and develop... hopefully to the point where most starts flowing freely without much thought about the system anymore.
While today, knowing my root positions and ensuing chord degrees in all playing positions has become the system that works for me and allows me to develop my pockets and express myself, today more than ever, still I admit I wished I had learned to read at least so to extract the information available.
interesting topic!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 May 2023 6:01 pm
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Can't say that I do, and can't say that I don't.
And that's definite. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 9 May 2023 4:25 am
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I grew up in a home that seemingly didn't value reading music, as I only ever saw my Dad playing guitar by ear. That said I did take some Accordion lessons as a kid and although I can? read music, I'm NOT a sight reader or able to read in real time.
Jumping into C6th in the last couple of years has necessitated me approaching it differently than I did E9th way back when. I'm still not intimately aware of where everything lives but am definitely better able to navigate it while using iReal than I was a short time ago, and doubt I'll ever be a great sight reader.
I remember singing in choir, doing things like Handel's Messiah and struggling with sight reading. My solution was to stand next to a fella who's Dad was a Dr of Music at the College and who himself was a great musician and reader of music, so learning the music by Ear kind of showed me what that sheet music was saying. Still trying to read a chart in real time just makes me shudder, especially looking for alts and extensions, perhaps that speaks as much to "Neck Knowledge" as anything else.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Gil James
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 9 May 2023 6:46 am
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| I learned to read music in grade school, playing the trumpet for 4 years. As JD mentioned I didn't realize then I was just one note of a chord in the grand scheme of things. Moved on to rhythm guitar in stage band and chords made more sense. Fast forward 50 years,playing steel the last 3, NO, I cant read a lick on this thing. The only reading I do is out of the red hymn book at church, and that's just to see what key it's in and to follow the words to keep track of where we are.😁 So pretty much an ear player on steel. I do practice scales and arpeggios daily. One routine I use is to go through House of the rising sun in 3 different positions in each key, working my way up the neck. Got that idea from Paul Franklins MMM e9 course. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 9 May 2023 11:45 am
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| I think some of you WAY over think reading music. Let's reduce this to its component parts. Every Good Boy Does Fine and FACE. That is your starting point. That is very note on the staff. Look at the sharps and flats to find your key. Reduce the chart into its Nashville numbers. All you have to do now is read the melody. Don't try and learn the melody on all the strings. Learn the melody on one string. like your E string. You can learn to read the melody on a single string in a weekend. or a day. or an hour. It isn't hard. it is easy. Easy peacy . you just need the will to do it. |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 9 May 2023 11:50 am
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Yes to all - fluently
_________________
Tim Harr
Mullen G2 D-10 (9p/5k)
Retired, US Army Band (Steel/Dobro/Guitar)
Kemper Profiler / LW 89 |
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