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Topic: G# String Breakage on Long Scale (UPDATE) |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 11:19 am |
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Love my 25.5" scale Excel,, but I've tried and broke 6 .011 G# 3rd strings. Different brands including GHS reinforced. Currently tuned down to D9,,,but would sure like to tune back up. Any suggestions from Excel long scale player
Problem solved,,,,,modified scale length,,25.5 to 24.25.
Last edited by Sonny Jenkins on 8 Jul 2023 12:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 1:17 pm
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GHS work for me, but no other brand I've tried so far.
Although mine's keyless, I put a lot of turns round the tuning post just like on a conventional tuner, and I tighten it up very slowly, working the B pedal as I go.
Even Mitsuo says he doesn't like fitting that string!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 2:11 pm
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Try a .012 for the high string. 
Erv |
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Samuel Phillippe
From:
Douglas Michigan, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 2:48 pm
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Had this problem on my BMI and used the extra wrap technique....it worked.
I agree with IAN.....GHS strings are my go to and so far no problems.
Sam |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 3:01 pm
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Is all the strings breaking at the Changer Finger roller, Or just breaking any where?
I gigged a MSA Classic for about 5 years. The 3rd string was 29 inches from Changer Finger, To Key. It seemed some .011 would work good, And would last to string change time. Other times they just broke.
A local steel player had a small shop and sold George L strings at the time. All local players got their strings from him. He got an order of .011 strings that was bad. At one gig, The show had 3 bands with local steel players. Every steel broke 1 or more .011 3rd strings on stage that night. The Steeler that sold us the strings even broke a string on stage that night.
The some of the crowd got mad and some laughed at all string changing that night. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 4:23 am
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I should have specified this is keyless,,,additional wraps would cut the strings!!!! It's a tension break
due to the long scale,,,if an 11 breaks, then a 12 would definitely break BEFORE it reached pitch!
A 10 would probably work but I think it would sound too thin ,,to me even an 11 has always sounded thin
I like a 12 but that is definitely out of the question. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 7:17 am
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
...It's a tension break
due to the long scale,,,if an 11 breaks, then a 12 would definitely break BEFORE it reached pitch! |
But have you tried it? Fact is that a .012 string is about 20% stronger than a .011, and that means the even if it takes more tension to get it to pitch, it may hold up better. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 7:18 am
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Donny,
You are exactly right.
Erv |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 8:38 am
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| Back in the 90's i ended up having to change the scale of a guitar I built w a 25" scale and some other friends also did the same as no matter what brand of strings we tried - the 3rd string would break- my hands are still scarred up from all the breaking. It turns out the the metal being used then had a problem and all manufacturer's strings were affected. This lasted about 6 months then things got better. It seems to be happening again, IMHO, as I'm going thru the same thing at the shop w guitars having scale lengths of longer than 24 1/4" using multiple brands of strings. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 9:16 am
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When Buddy Emmons was designing the Emmons guitar, he experimented with different scale lengths.
He decided that 24 1/4" was the longest scale that could be used without excessive string breakage.
Erv |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 9:24 am
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Donnie and Erv,,,,an .017 is "stronger" too but it couldn't possibly be expected to tune up the G# of that octave. And yes I've tried the 12 since as stated I really like a 12 G#. Actually a .010 will pull up to pitch,,,but sounds too thin.
Currently I'm tuned down to a D9 and using a 12,,,,sure is taking some getting used to position wise |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 11:16 am
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Sonny, no one suggested using a .017, as I recall?
Also, you never said where the strings are breaking?
(We’re trying to help.) |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 12:05 pm
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"STRONGER" was suggested,,,obviously stronger, whether a 12 or a 17 or whatever is obviously not the solution, ,but I appreciate the suggestion.
Actually the strings on a steel guitar are gauged based on the pitch relative to tension, relative to length,,,,the standard optimum tension being around 30 lbs,,plus or minus,,,giving a somewhat even balance across the strings. Believe it or not a 12 for G# is well over 40 lbs on a 24.25 scale,,,,to bring it up to pitch on a 25.5" scale would exceed what the string was designed for. Pitch, length, tension,,all relative. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 2:18 pm
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| Jim,,have you tried Jaguar strings? I'm thinking the solution is to tune down to D9,,,adjust string gouges for proper tension. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 1 May 2023 10:21 am
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Hi Sonny,
Here is some info I got from Dave Easley on this topic on his Excel.
He is using the High Carbon Steel model KPL011 D'Addario .011 string.
"I use D'Addario, high carbon steel, soldered end 11s and I put a little drop of Scotty's Oil on the bridge right after a couple of swipes with fine black sand paper to remove any tiny burrs that might have developed. Steve Sanford said I'd better use Scotty's Oil which was sage advice. Scotty's Oil is the right viscosity for steel."
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 2 May 2023 9:15 pm Re: G# String Breakage on Long Scale
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| Love my 25.5" scale Excel,, but I've tried and broke 6 .011 G# 3rd strings. Different brands including GHS reinforced. Currently tuned down to D9,,,but would sure like to tune back up. Any suggestions from Excel long scale players? |
I shouldn't then compared to a 24 1/4" scale WITH a key head, the 3rd string is still shorter on a 25 1/2" keyless as opposed to going all the way to the 3 tuning machine post in a key head.
Thus even the tension is slightly less on a 25 1/2" keyless than on a keyed 24 1/4" scale PSG.
String tension is not governed by scale length, but by total string length.
So, there must be another reason for the sudden death of your o.o11s, a burr on the changer finger maybe?
As far as string gauges. I like them high strings a thick as possible. I remember some "re-inforced" or o.o115" G-strings  being sold at one time?
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 May 2023 12:34 am
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First - where is the string breaking? If it's at a contact point, something sharp may be causing it to break. If it's just in the middle of the string, then it could be a problem with the string. Or it could just be that you've hit the string break tension.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| ...It's a tension break due to the long scale,,,if an 11 breaks, then a 12 would definitely break BEFORE it reached pitch! |
But have you tried it? Fact is that a .012 string is about 20% stronger than a .011, and that means the even if it takes more tension to get it to pitch, it may hold up better. |
Here are a couple of threads that discuss the theoretical and practical relationship between string tension, string length, and break tension (strength).
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354973
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/008614.html
Holding scale length fixed, as the string gauge goes up, the break tension (strength) definitely goes up. How much exactly depends on the material, how the string was made, and this can vary a bit based on various factors. But the tension also goes up approximately the same amount as the break strength. But the key word here is approximately.
A useful reference is this D'Addario string tension chart - https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf - it's specifically for their strings, brands do vary a bit. But especially useful is the tension equation
T = (UW x (2 x L x F)^2) / 386.4
where T is tension in pounds, UW is the string's unit-weight in pound/linear-inch, L is the scale length in inches, and F is vibration frequency in Hz. It's a bit deceiving, because the tension goes up as length and frequency squared, but linear with unit-weight. However, the unit-weight depends on the cross-sectional area of the string, which goes up as radius squared. So the issue is whether the string breakage tension goes up as the square of the radius, or a little more or less. If it goes up faster than the square of the radius, then increasing string radius (gauge = diameter = radius*2) may help. Otherwise, probably not. BTW, for D'Addario, their published unit-weights are .00003190lb/in for a .012 gauge and .00002680 lb/in for .011 gauge, so the ratio is 1.190298507, i.e., about 19% higher tension at .012. Of course, this may vary a bit depending on manufacturer, material, and so on.
I think it would be worth trying a .012 gauge string if you haven't. Or maybe a .0115. Maybe some different brands too. The discussion about .017 gauge is not relevant - as the string gauge and tension are increased more and more, the relationships get more and more nonlinear and go completely out of the realm of anything being discussed here.
This thread discusses others successfully - and not-so-successfully - tuning E9 on a keyless 25.5" scale Excel - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=378418 - I think it can probably be done with some strings, and probably not with others. When you push strings to their absolute limit, I think this is where the differences in strings can be relevant. I would pay attention to info from a guy like Dave Easley - high-carbon steel, soldered end, a specific type of oil may all help. Theory can help one understand the effects of the various variables and tell you if you're in the ballpark. But there is no substitute for actual practical experience in the trenches.
BTW - the relevant string tension equation parameters are 25.5" scale length and the pitch is A4, not G#4, unless you're not pulling it up to A4 with the B pedal. And there is the additional issue of additional impulse as you're pulling it up to pitch. There is a difference in that impulse, depending on how hard and fast you pull it.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 3 May 2023 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 3 May 2023 6:30 am
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D9 was my solution to string breakage with 25.5" scale. I started years ago with Sho-Bud E9, Then Sho-Bud S-12 with Anderson's Bb6/Eb9 Uni. Years later, I got a Sierra S-12 25.5" with same tuning but later changed it to A6/D9. Really don't break strings any more.
It was difficult playing gigs when I first changed from E9 to Eb9 always wanting to go to wrong fret, was difficult changing again to D9 but difficulty was only short period of time.
_________________
Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 3 May 2023 6:50 am
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Sonny, fwiw, In my own experiments with my own Excel long scale S12U, the 12 always outlasted the 11.
I change that string every few weeks before it breaks, and change the whole set every few months. |
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Larry Allen
From:
Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii
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Posted 3 May 2023 10:09 am Brteakage
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Hey Sonny, on my Excels I’ve used a .012, 25.5” and 24 1/4: scale..for years I used Cobras, no problem. Then I switched to live steel , several times the G# would break at the bridge, Then I went to NYXL and have never broken one..
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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 14 May 2023 4:31 pm
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I've nearly always used a .012 on my third string on all the guitars I have owned ... my ShoBud Super Pro used to throw .011's on the floor with regular monotony until I tried .012's ... end of problem !
Been using NYXL's for a fair while now and never broken a string at all.
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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memphislim
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 15 May 2023 9:14 am
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| 12's last longer and they are LOUDER. Not as thin sounding either, much preferred. NYXL's by Daddario are the best sounding stings I've ever had. Packaged great too in vacuum sealed bags so no rust. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 May 2023 12:27 pm
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VERY few brands actually manufacture plain strings - it involves"drawing" wire under heat/pressure from bar stock down to the wire diameter. Virtually NO small brands do (they buy raw wire from Mapes or piano wire companies - even some larger names do as it saves money.
While brands of wound strings are often wound in house, plain steel wire differs little between brands.
The BEST thing you can do - and I've worked on long scale Fenders for years - is buff the heck out of contact surfaces at both ends - then look through a $20-30 electronic, hand-held microscope (you can get them from Amazon). You'll probably STILL see burrs on one or both surfaces, so buff some more.
I've used this procedure for years on 25" scale Fender 400's and 1000's(tuned to the top-8 of E9) with both solid bar and roller bridges and nuts and have never had a string break.
Roller bridges and saddles are actually the most difficult to smooth out and get burr-free.
And DO NOT use oil on any of them! it attracts dirt, metal fibers and other contaminants that create burrs. Use ONLY oil-free Dupont Teflon (the generic is PTFE) lube every couple of months - it doesn't gum up, attract dirt or do anything but provide smooth lubrication.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 26 May 2023 7:46 am
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I haven't broken a string in years but the other night I popped a 3rd string on stage and went through 4 strings.
What I do is take it up to G and let it sit awhile.
Take it up to G# and let it sit overnight.
I change the 3rd string every 3 or 4 gigs but my practice guitar 3rd seems to last forever. LOL
Sometimes they pop and will cut you. 
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 May 2023 10:43 am
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
Donnie and Erv,,,,an .017 is "stronger" too but it couldn't possibly be expected to tune up the G# of that octave. And yes I've tried the 12 since as stated I really like a 12 G#. Actually a .010 will pull up to pitch,,,but sounds too thin.
Currently I'm tuned down to a D9 and using a 12,,,,sure is taking some getting used to position wise |
Sonny, WHERE does the string break?
At the changer or at the nut or behind it.
Again. The total string length of a keyless 25 1/2" scale is equal or shorter than on a keyed guitar 24 1/4" scale. Thus the tension is equal or LESS.
So, your issue is something else:
- a defective string (but if it is recurring):
- a burr at the changer
- a burr at the nut roller
- a burr at the tuner fingers
- bad stringing practice (string cross-wrapped at a peg (some later Exel models have a pre-tune peg at the changer).
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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