How do you tune 3rds on a universal tuning?

Bill McCloskey · Posted 5 Apr 2023 9:57 am

One of things I like to do is play a chord like an Am7 on my E9th neck and then play the same chord on the C6 neck. There is a definite difference between those different necks.

On my E9th, my G# are flattened.

On the C6 neck, the G# would be tuned straight up. The E9th neck and C6th neck are slightly out of tune with each other.

So how does this work on a universal tuning? What gets flatted? Or do you tune everything straight up 440?

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Bill. Wow, I can hear a lot of brains exploding. I feel a universal tuning is still based as an E9 as it's foundation- so flattened 3 rds would be in order. Since every note is a third to some chord, where does it all end? RP
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

They're "Flattered".
And they'll be the first to tell ya! Winking

Bill McCloskey · Posted 5 Apr 2023 11:50 am

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/jeff-newman-tuning-charts/

http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I aim for:
major thirds 390 cents
minor thirds 307.5 cents

Bill McCloskey · Posted 5 Apr 2023 4:10 pm

Thanks to everyone for the extremely practical answers.

I guess my question is more on the theoretical side, though. It seems to me that if E9th and C6 necks are not in tune with each other, since they are based on different root notes using just intonation and sweetening. It would strike me that a Universal would either need to compromise the E9th side or the B6th as far as tuning is concerned.

So my question: Can playing B6 on a Universal ever be as in tune as C6th by itself.

If that makes sense. I'm trying to wrap my head around the notion that both of those necks can't be on one neck and have both in tune.

But maybe I'm thinking of this all wrong.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I tune my E9th E's to 442 to compensate for cabinet drop. Then my A's end up 440 and in tune with a piano. My B's are also at 442. So, I start there and tune both E9th/B6th and keep in mind trying to compensate the 3rds. Fast moving single notes aren't a factor. Chords are the culprit, especially triads. It can never be perfect, but it serves to fit with a piano in the studio.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The offsets in your tuning scheme have to be adjusted for the different harmonic functions required of a string, as Ron Pruter alludes. And forget about getting it perfect.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I use compensators on my F#s and G#s.
RKL D#s are tuned accordingly to B.

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

After many years of JI, I went back to ET on my U12 and have been liking it for most of the gigs I play right now. Once I got my ear broken into it it seems to allow for more possibilities across the instrument.. but I’ve started to tweak certain changes I use a lot so we’ll see how long it lasts lol 😂
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I play Jeff Newman's 12 string Universal tuning on a GFI, The E9th tuning is the same as my old S10 E9th tuning.

And all the B6th pedals are tuned Sharp or Flat like the E9th tuning. In 1 of his lesson videos Mr. Newman stated that your ear is what puts you in tune with the band.

Keeping viberotto going with the bar, That slight fast bar movement will hide those little differences, Till a human ear can not distinguish the exact note.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Bill doesn't specify which Am chords he means. But if you tune the E9 side of a uni in your preferred way (with or without adjusted 3rds) and then tune the B6 pedals and levers straight up, then everything works just like a twin-neck, which is the whole idea of a uni!
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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

A 6 string Spanish guitar never sounds in tune with itself when you fret different chords. Same with a piano. The Microfret guitar solves some of the open string chord problem dealing with the 3rd string sounding out of tune. There's never a total cure. Yes, vibrato will help cover-up. Try leaving your tuner on and play up and down the neck. You many want to put the guitar in the basement and throw a tarp over it. Laughing

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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

fwiw, Jeff Newman and Maurice Anderson have worked this all out back in the 70's for us Universal guys.
They would be the first to tell you... We don't play pedal/lever/string combos that sound out of tune.
Simple as that.

Universal is for playing gigs on the bandstand.
I don't recommend it for anyone who wants every pedal/lever/open-string combo to be perfectly in tune.

In the example Bill mentions, the person playing the Universal would just play the inversion of the chord that sounds best with the band.
No reason to think E9 or B6th/C6th in this case.
Just one big tuning.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I don't quite agree with Pete's implication that a universal tuning is good enough for undiscerning punters but not for serious work. Whatever tuning system you favour on a D10 can be replicated on a uni.

Some of the strings are shared between the E9 and B6, but all the changes are independent.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

The only negative I've heard from a few players that have played a basic copedent of D-10 for many years is the mind boggling aspect of 12 strings. They eventually go back to the comfort of their D-10. I played D-10 for 8 years and found comfort in the U-12 plus raising the 9th string (B to D)providing a unique sound to E9 and B6.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Sorry Pete, I misconstrued. I agree that if you have a very loaded D10 setup you can't take it all with you to the U12. You take the bits that really matter and actually work together. I have played U12 seriously all my career (all 10 years of it Smile

)
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

E9/B6 Universal 7+5 for 41 years. Geezer!
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Both Maurice and Jeff tuned “JI”… but “their” kind of “JI”.
It’s evidently physically not possible to tune a Universal perfectly JI for all pedal lever combinations.
Just a fairly “basic” Lloys Green alome cannot since the addition of the E-to-F raise lever. It cannot be tined to A&B down Augmented AND A-down (a JI flattened Maj. 3d to
A&B down, an now flat to a flat C# root) C# chord. Novody cam do that unless youd have a mechanism with condioned pull distance depending on other pulls… which has yet to be invented.

I think that due to the playing STYLE applications one would hardly be able to resist the urge to tune E9th as “sweet” as possible. That already causes issues with the flattened G# (A’s in C6th) when the Eb lever is held down and the player wants to involve pedals 4 thru 7 or 8 (plus the B-pedal whis IS a comon C6th change too and used just like in E9th to make the 6th degree a Dom. 7th or a Sus4 with P6 etc). So, that alone brings up a possible need for compensators to “straighten” the B6th out.
I have come to the conclusion that, while I would still tune a NON-pedal C6th JI, even a fairly traditional PEDALED C6th generates so many “stacked” changes with roots amd thus the more problmatic Major 3rd intervals generated moving all over the place, that I try to tune C6th as ET as possible and the adjust some just as little as possible to make them bareable. One DOES get used to ET and “almost” ET just like I’ve had people never exposed to such JI capabilities as the PSG has find that my 3rds were out of tune, because they were not used to that.

So, while THIS whole subject is one of the 2 main reasons I dropped Universal by dropping the “E9th”-aspect of it, coming back to the OP’s question, I would tune the Eb’s as little flat as you can stand it and learn to compensate with the bar ever so slightly amd contemplate comp. raises on that lever on the G#’s to create a fairly stable platform on the resulting B6th chord to start tuning pedals against it.

Many here will remember the heated and often enough discussions we had on the subject 2 Decades ago. Many didn’t even know that JI was actually the contrary to “Tempered” tuning and ET was only one of many ways to temper a tuning… until Buddy Emmons trew a bucked full of ice water at it by declaring that he was now tuning “straight” (implying ET).
I was at Maurice Anderson’s home right around that time and he said “he didn’ believe that in a minit [minute]”. Pressed by an avalanche of questions, BE somewhat explained that he’d tune up “to the tuner” and just sweetened some of the worst offenders a “little bit”.
This Forum has brought a great many of us out of not only seclusion, but also ignorance, misconcepts and shown us into the world of compromises.

… JD.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

When discussing "tuning" we need to distinguish between the tuning of the open strings on the one hand and the changes on the other.

On my uni 12 I tune all the strings to natural intervals, so both "necks" (which of course share most of their strings) are JI. I then tune all the E9 changes to preserve that natural sonorority. But that doesn't work on the B6 because of the many altered chords, which only work in a tempered system such as ET* - so I tune the B6 changes straight up. There is no contradiction in adding ET changes to JI strings.

You can't build an aug or dim chord from natural intervals - if you try, the roof won't fit.

*(J.D. is quite right to point out that ET is only one of many systems although it's the simplest to use and understand.)
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Bill McCloskey · Posted 22 Apr 2023 2:16 pm

This turned out to be a more interesting thread then I imagined. I appreciate all the great responses so far.

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