| How do you tune your pedal steel? |
| Equal Temperament, exactly chromatic |
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14% |
[ 9 ] |
| Just-Intonation / "Sweetened" / "Pure Harmony" |
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85% |
[ 53 ] |
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| Total Votes : 62 |
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| Author |
Topic: Tuning Survey: Just Intonation vs Equal-Temperament |
Ben Feldman
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 9:18 am |
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Hi all, there is a lot of content about the merits of tuning to equal-temperament (ET) vs. just-intonation (JI). (Tom Bradshaw's article is great.) I am curious to hear how people are actually tuning their instruments, hence a survey.
If you use one tuning style (ET vs JI) for E9 and a different style for C6, please comment below.
If you wish to endorse your favorite digital tuner, comment below.
Thanks. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 11:44 am
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| I use the Newman Sweetened. Has worked for me on a D-10 Franklin, a D-10 GFI Ultra and my present SD-10 GFI Ultra. Actually, I use my own "JE9" which combines the opens/pedals/knees into one program. JE9 is compatible with the StrobOPlus HD and HDC and the StroboClip. I have a similar program for C6thm "JC6". |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 1:24 pm
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I use a "hybrid" that is kinda in the middle of the two.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 5:56 pm
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| Same as Lee... halfway between the two systems. |
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Brian Lee
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 10:59 pm
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Tom Bradshaw kindly shared an earlier draft of his superb and entertaining article on Just harmonic tuning that is now available on his website. Thank you so much Tom! You’re the greatest!
I followed his harmonic Just tuning method carefully to develop tuning offsets for my specific steel then programmed my tuner with the custom offsets. I have the new Peterson anniversary Strobostomp tuner which is really nice and easy to program with the custom offsets. It can’t make the offset measurements though, so I also needed to buy their iPhone app tuner to initially measure the offsets vs. even temper in cents. The phone app was inexpensive and worked well for the measurements, so not a big deal.
I have tuned my pedal rig using both the Peterson sweetened standard presets (Newman chart based) and the Bradshaw harmonic method custom offsets I measured. While they’re similar, the custom settings developed using Tom’s Just harmonic method win for my ears and my specific guitar. It took a while to do the harmonic method carefully to get good offset measurements, but with them programmed in the tuner it’s now quick and easy to tune up with the same result. I’m going to figure out and program with the same just harmonic approach on my non pedal rig too. Thanks for your informative article Tom!
_________________
'52 Fender Dual 8, '65 ZB Custom D10, '67 ZB Custom S12, 2022 Jackson Pro V, other guitars, amps. Harmonica player too. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Apr 2023 11:38 pm
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I voted JI because that's what I base my universal tuning on.
The E9 changes are all JI with the 3rds tuned very slightly sharp for safety (as even slightly flat sounds dreadful). Then I tune my B6 changes to ET to accommodate the diminished and augmented chords.
Sounds good to me! 
Whether you flatten the 3rds in ET or sharpen them in JI it amounts to much the same - even-tempered 5ths aren't far off natural ones.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 9 Apr 2023 6:38 am
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None of my steel guitars are tuned Equal temperament across all strings.
All 3 guitars lean towards JI without beeing totally JI, where certain strings differ more away from Equal Temperamemnt than other strings.
My favorite tuner is an old Peterson VS-II
I only check how much each string is away from the ET according to my own preferences.
Bengt Erlandsen
Remington S10LG 3+4
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7
JCH D10 8+8 |
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Bob Shilling
From:
Berkeley, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2023 9:08 am
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I just play at home. Mostly with a headset. I've used both ways of tuning, and don't hear much difference. The Jeff Newman sweeteners in my Peterson Strobo HD do sound slightly better (less beating on chords) and are just as easy to use (SE9 for open strings and SP9 for pedals and levers), so I do - with some slight tweaking.
_________________
Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic" |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Tab Tabscott
From:
Somewhere between Vashon Island and The mainland.
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Posted 9 Apr 2023 4:46 pm Travis Toy Tuning
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Travis tunes with harmonics (some off the 9th fret) to tune his E9th. I did it his way on a guitar and it is the most "in tune" I have ever heard it.
I dont know which you would call it. Its not tempered. But it is in REALLY REALLY good tune.
You can see the rundown on the TTT website.
_________________
Tab Tabscott
Play nice.
They is none else. |
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Ben Feldman
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 6:56 am
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| Has anybody out there recorded a comparison of JI vs ET on pedal steel? I've looked but can't find one |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 9:08 am
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I think either approach, and all points in between, are valid. The trick seems to be in the hearing and intonation department more than anything, and how you use your ear and hands with your particular way of tuning...
I don't tune completely pure JI, but there is certainly a beauty and order to that system. Particularly in the overlapping harmonics that occur and create 'ghost' chord tones in dyads and string pairings...Beyond tuning, I feel this can be incorporated into left hand technique with practice and it really enables one to play less, as the sound becomes much richer. Take for instance strings B and G#....a simple maj 6 interval. Intonated pure, they both have a very pronounced common overtone of D#, that creates a subtle major third and you can hear it, even with bar on strings...
Tuning wise, I use a system that narrows the maj thirds slightly and widens the min 3rds slightly, but consistently. 4ths and 5ths are pretty much straight up. This all allows for adaptive left hand intonation in any given musical context. I program my offsets in a Peterson tuner as a time saver, but I understand how and why each change is altered from ET.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 11 Apr 2023 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 10:10 am
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I don't think a lot of players tune either purely ET or JI. I don't, so I didn't answer the poll.
I tune E9 by ear after setting my roots a bit sharp of A4=440Hz. I particularly want triads to sound good. I'm not even maniacally precise about setting the roots to, let's say, A4=442Hz. But I do set roots a bit sharp, and when measured it usually falls around 442Hz. For me, this not only handles some cabinet drop when engaging pedals and levers, but it also makes certain open-string (no bar on the strings) combinations like A+F sound more in-tune to me. Recall that when tuning JI, making the A+F combination sound right requires barring a little sharp of the fret marker. Relative to the roots, the tuning intervals lean more to JI, but it only matters to me that it sounds good in all positions with all pedals and levers engaged. If I really get stuck and someone pedantically insists that I absolutely must not ever be heard tuning my steel, then I'll use the SE9 preset on my Peterson Strobo Stomp HD and hopefully have a chance to tweak by ear at some point.
C6 is a work in progress for me, but I tend to tune it a bit differently. I often start ET on a tuner but tweak to suit so it sounds good, which tends to sweeten up triads some. Chordally, I'm more focused on complex jazz chords and I think forcing triads to be too purely harmonically in-tune does cause issues for me. But again, I think the ears have to trump everything else.
There have been some threads with examples of the difference between JI and ET-tuned guitars. I'm pretty sure the threads are still up, but since the forum has no storage for audio/video examples, the actual clips may be long gone. But honestly - I think the more important thing is to be able to hear the differences. You should be able to do that comparison using a tuner like the Peterson with reasonably good near-JI presets that you can then compare with the straight-up ET approach. If you can't hear the differences without the bar on the strings, then how you tune doesn't really matter because you won't be able to hear the differences once you put the bar on the strings. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 10:22 am
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I can't put in a vote because I have a panoply of opinions depending the tuning and setup:
I would still tune an E9th JI... because except for a few "stacked" changes (like the E-F-lever with the A-pedal) one can. There are few enough changes on one neck to add the necessary compensators (which would be needed).
I would tune a non-pedal C6th JI. After all, your slants are likely to follow the ear and seek to sound JI... it's in mind the only way one would judge intonation doing slants.
I have given up the Universal E9th PSG in favor of an expanded 6-Pedal/8-Levers C6th tuning for 2 reasons:
1- I have lost interest in E9th and really came back to PSG after almost 20 years off for Jazz, Jazz Blues, Bebop and Soul/NeoSoul.
2- "thinking"-Universal, meaning that I used to deal with E9/C6 as ONE tuning where ALL changes interact and not a "two-sided"-setup played separately like a double neck, I was battling tuning compromises I could just not fix.
On my extended C6th PSG the pedal arrangement is not completely standard, with the most notable swaps being having "standard P6" on RKL which allows me to easily play "P5 & P7" together because "P6" has been removed from in between and also add the "P6"-change from the lever to the two.
The other one, being the C-C#-lever to the left of "standard P5". This one had me some inherent JI conflicts I would need a battery of compensators to somehow rein in.
Upon B0b's suggestion I tried his "Meantone"-tuning approach and at first thought I could get happy with it... but finally ended up tuning ET to be able to combine all the changes I have available. (I have 2 verticals on the left and one vertical on the right... son I CAN combine some 6 changes IF I wanted. That results in stacked changes where the roots and thus most problematic 3rds are changing string positions constantly and depending on the combination.
I HAD to go ET...
But then, I have come to work out some compromises, where I might have my E's just a TAD lowered, my C's a TAD raised to get to a beat I can find even attractive and which furthers a certain "growl" without sounding out of tune against rhythm organic (real strings) and digitally generated tracks.
My youngest (12) son plays piano now 3 years and I am very involved with his progress.
After having played rhythm guitar for most of my sabbatical from steel and thus having had to deal with ET (even the 2nd string being tuned as a 5th to the 1st instead of even trying to sweeten the M3rd interval from the 3rd string and now hearing him play and myself spending time on the pianos... one can get USED to ET... (and please, yes... it's not "perfect" ET... but in principle it IS ET)... but even after years, it's like going back to heroine (I guess) to get hooked to the sweetness of JI as soon as I played around on a steel again.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 1:06 pm
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If E9 was all octaves, 4ths and 5ths, tuning would be a lot easier. But it’s not, and to my ear pure ET and Newman JI don’t work on it.
I try to get the octaves perfect and get everything else as close as I can get away with. If I tune the beats out of the 3rds, I know I’m going to get in trouble with 4ths and 5ths somewhere. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 2:30 pm
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Exactly Fred. 4ths, 5ths, Unisons and Octaves almost don't need any tweaking. It's the major 3rds that are the culprit.
I guess I don't use either one. I tune closer to ET than JI tempered tuning per Jeff's and other's charts.
I can't stand the dissonance where notes are flat to the rest of the environment. I fought that for years with the original Jeff chart thinking it must be right.
So, what I do is tune the Es straight up with the AB pedals down which compensates for any detuning my guitars might have and tune everything else to that by ear. I have the guitar player hit me his 1st position A triad and check against that hopeful that whatever tuner he's using is calibrated and he's in tune.
I don't use a Petersen...I have chromatic tuners in my multi-fx boxes and a dedicated rack tuner which I use only to rough in the tuning when the stage volume is too loud. I tweak them as I play if I need to.
I tune all Es on both E9 and C6 at the same time with pedals down which simplifies things for me.
Because E is the major 3rd of C, that makes everything else on the C neck sharp. I'll take a little sharp over flat any day.
I use my pedals down A triad on the E9 for a lot of stuff in and out so I want it to be in tune with everybody else. It won't be if you temper tune all the beats out.
Incidentally, I've never had one complaint about being sharp or out of tune on either neck using this method.
The best method I've ever found is Al Petty's method of tuning beats in which requires you actually count the beats by listening. This is a relaxed version of ET whereby the 3rds are approx. 9 cps as opposed to the strict 13 one finds in the Allied Arts piano tuning bible. This relaxed method softens the dissonance with the major 3rds but makes for better blending with all the other instruments.
The only problem with this is that you have to be able to hear and count the beats which is sometimes hard to hear among your noisy neighbors.
My fix for this was to tune using the beats then make note of what the tuner showed and record it.
My finding has been that no chart is right for every guitar.
They all detune at different rates on different strings.
If there's a fixed tuned keyboard in the group, I try to put my pedals down open A chord as close as possible to his and rarely have tuning problems for the rest of the event.
In the end, I guess my goal is to get my guitar in tune with my environment to start with and hope the guitar player doesn't start re-tuning upwards as the night goes on.
Use your ears. If it sounds out of tune, it is, no matter what your high dollar tuner says.
If I had to rely strictly on a tuner, I could almost tune everything straight up from whatever reference I might be using and just tweak the 3rds enough to not be too harsh.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 10 Apr 2023 3:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 2:44 pm Re: Travis Toy Tuning
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| Tab Tabscott wrote: |
| Travis tunes with harmonics (some off the 9th fret) to tune his E9th. I did it his way on a guitar and it is the most "in tune" I have ever heard it. |
Tuning with harmonics will deliver natural intervals, so the result will have much of the sonorous character of JI.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 3:56 pm
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| Quote: |
| The best method I've ever found is Al Petty's method of tuning beats in which requires you actually count the beats by listening. |
Jerry, do you happen to have any documentation on that method, or a link to it? Tuning the beats in is something I just started doing a while ago by accident, but if there is some actual methodology then I’d like to know about it. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 10 Apr 2023 5:03 pm
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Fred, I attended one of Al's tuning seminars one year.
I still have a cassette tape somewhere where he explains and instructs how to tune the intervals and why you would want to do it.
There was no print material and I've never seen any text or charts posted here.
I'll have to work on getting you a copy of that. At present, I don't have a way to do it, but I know someone who might be able to dup it for me.
I'll let you know. First thing I have to do is find it 
The cassette course is quite long and extensive, so I condensed it all down and wrote a 6 or 7 step procedure for guitar...if I can find it. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 11 Apr 2023 5:40 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Fred, I attended one of Al's tuning seminars one year.
I still have a cassette tape somewhere where he explains and instructs how to tune the intervals and why you would want to do it.
There was no print material and I've never seen any text or charts posted here.
I'll have to work on getting you a copy of that. At present, I don't have a way to do it, but I know someone who might be able to dup it for me.
I'll let you know. First thing I have to do is find it
The cassette course is quite long and extensive, so I condensed it all down and wrote a 6 or 7 step procedure for guitar...if I can find it. |
I was going to ask the same as Fred just did.
What you describe SEEMS similar of what I have been doing recently: tuning the most problematic 3rds to an “acceptable” beat at a frequency I can replicate with my fingers on the top of the guitar.
I have found that it can create a quite pleasing “growl”.
IF you have the casette “dubbed” (if it still is of usable quality), may I ask that you’d please have it converted to mp3 and make it available thru a sharing cloud like DropBOX or even YouTUBE (I understand it’s not a video, sound files are being uploaded to youTUBE every day).
I’d be very interested to hear it.
Thanks!… JD
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 11 Apr 2023 6:01 am
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The Newman C6th tuning chart must have been derived from Emmons and his harmonic tuning method. On a GFI D-10, I tuned the C6th harmonically and then checked the tuning with the Newman on a Peterson tuner and it agreed.
When I first got a Korg tuner I tuned everything to "0" and everyone kept telling me I was out of tune. I got the Newman chart and used that and no one told me I was out of tune. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 11 Apr 2023 6:40 am
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That's the gist of the method JD. Relax the 3rds from the ET about 13 cycles per seconds to 9. You can do it with a little practice counting the cps and using a stop watch.
The rest of the course is instructing how to tune the other strings in relation to each each other.
Like I said, I haven't found it yet and I don't have the necessary means to convert it.
I know Al has passed on, but I don't know if his works are protected somehow. Something that needs to be looked into before publishing to the public.
He had a lot of stuff out there.
Anyway, this topic is a survey and poll which I didn't answer and probably shouldn't have replied to with this stuff. Apologies for the sidetrack. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2023 7:05 am
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ime, Tuning every open/pedal/lever note to 440 or Straight Up kinda goes out the window as soon you start pressing pedals and levers.
For one example, Tune your open String-6-G# on your tuner Straight Up, then engage A+F. On most Steels it goes flat (No longer Straight Up).
Same thing with your E's when you engage AB. |
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