RKR: What have I done wrong??? (a second Update)

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I recently had that single stamped-metal 14-hole bell-crank fracture, break, and disable the RKR. I replaced it with another but was slightly uncomfortable with all the strain going on to that one B/C (five pulls).

I have replaced it with a JCH/Derby-type bell-crank; these are double-sided and will take far more abuse than the original.

When I got things back together (I had to remove the actual KL to switch the rod) things seemed to work, but my pulls all needed retuning.

Now I've reached an impasse: I will get my 10th (B to A), 9th (D to C#) going down to pitch only to find that the 2nd string no longer moves!!! If I then tune that, the 9th and 10th aren't dropping the correct amount. Same with the As to A# on C6 - both are static. If I retune them, it spoils the others.

My only idea was that perhaps I hadn't got the bell-crank on tightly enough but it doesn't seem to be moving on the cross-shaft.

I'm at the end of my limited knowledge at this point.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

It sounds like the leverage between the lever and the new bell crank are just a little different than it was before with the stock 14 hole crank. If so, you would either need to alter the leverage, or increase the lever travel. Unfortunately the the lever stops on LeGrande right-moving knees are not very adjustable, they are just little threaded studs on the brackets. Looking at mine there are three holes, you can check to see if yours in one of the inner holes on the bracket, in which case you could still possibly move it and get the required range of motion. The other option would be to use a different hole in the new bell crank, closer to the cross shaft (if possible). This would make the shaft rotate farther for the same lever throw, but will also make the lever stiffer, the usual leverage trade-off. I'm not sure what the JCH bell crank looks like but I'm guessing the leverage options are more limited than on the stock Emmons crank. On my LeGrande II the jumper rod is in the 7th hole on the bell crank, so it's exactly 1 inch from the center of the cross shaft.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Ian.

I could try that. When I set her up afterwards, everything was pulling short of the right raise or lower.

These BCs only have four holes (but the whole thing is much sturdier) - right now, it's three holes away from the shaft. I can move it to the second hole quite easily.

I did notice, incidentally, that the pull was miles easier, even after I'd got 9 and 10 dropping to their correct notes.

I will try that now.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Bill McCloskey · Posted 26 Feb 2023 1:58 pm

Sounds like you have a trip to Nashville in your future. Now I understand your comment on my facebook page. Smile

BTW, you going to Dallas? I'll be there and would love to meet F2F

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Sadly, Bill, travel is no longer an (easy) option.

My hemodialysis sessions are every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I cannot miss a treatment. Driving - or even flying - to Nashville could not be accomplished in between Friday afternoon and Monday lunchtime, especially as whomever the repair guy is would have to want to be available at a weekend. Even then, it's just too tight.

I can get my treatment transferred to another clinic but it'd take some organizing.

I really think that I've bitten off more than I can chew this time. I tried Ian's suggestion - moving the rod closer to the cross-shaft - but it made no difference. No sooner do I get one pull in tune, another goes out. I'm chasing my tail and I know enough about steels to know when the science is too much for me. Smile

I should add that I believe Ian was correct; I have somehow altered the leverage with catastrophic results. I'm almost convinced to put things back where they were (put the old Emmons BC back, etc), but I'm not even sure that I could. Getting that cursed E-clip off the bottom of the KL was very tricky!

I did take a photo first.....I will look at it when I've calmed down.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Update:

I managed to reinstate an Emmons bell-crank and Hey Presto:

Everything works!

It was a really tough job getting the rid back in exactly the same hole: it didn't seem to want to go.

Sorry the pic is inverted.

Yes, I know the BC is loose in this snap but am I glad I took it! It told me the exact hole to use; I had such a job making it reach that, without the evidence, I may have been tempted to use the back row (easy to reach).

It's a weird principle - that rod pushes rather than pulls like all the others because it's not attached to the changer, but to the bottom of RKR. The pivot that occurs when you push RKR rotates the cross-shaft clockwise.

Another lesson learned: don't get in over your head, Roger!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

By the happiest of accidents, my fraught experience of yesterday has brought another benefit.

As I said, I reinstated the original type of BC, copying exactly where it had been hooked up, and everything resolved itself. Last night, my guitar was working as it has been - 2nd, 9th and 10th on E9 lowering, and As raising on C6.

My E9 2nd, though has been alternately tuned to a D or D#, with the lower only dropping it a half-step. I went all the way this morning and tuned the lower to drop a half-and a whole-tone. Miraculously, and for the very first time in years, the half-stop-feel as it lowers the 2nd a half and starts to lower 9, is really positive!

By another happy coincidence, my 4th C6 string reaches A# at that feel-stop then, if I push on through, it goes to the B. It feels light to use, too.

The despair at 4.00 pm yesterday has evaporated and I'm quietly satisfied with what I've done. It was Susie who nagged me to 'put it back as it was...'

I had begun to face the horror of having to ship the steel to someone to clean up my mess. Smile

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Ian:

If you look at my photo you'll see that mine, too, was at hole 7 (from the cross-shaft).

It was a real tussle getting it located in the same hole! I had to incline the KL just a touch and also make certain that no pulls were exerting tension and pulling the c/r over.

Next time I tackle this job, it'll be with a heavyweight aluminium B/C, bit one that doesn't alter any angles.

Phew! It's such a relief!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Bill McCloskey · Posted 27 Feb 2023 11:17 am

No better feeling than fixing your own messes. Congrats on getting things back in working order.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Roger - I'll make a new crank for you with the same basic geometry and hole spacing as the flimsy stamped steel cranks, but more robust. Maybe just long enough for holes ~5-9 to give a little adjustment leeway. It may not happen right away, but I plan to make a couple for my guitar after reading about your initial malady. I'll let you know.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Bill: I'm pretty pleased with the end result, despite the fact that the alien bell-crank idea should have worked. Those JCH/Derby ones are pretty sturdy.

Ian:
That would be great! Please bear me in mind.

Here's an enlargement of my LKL. You can clearly see the two extra-thick bell-cranks that were fitted years ago to alleviate the frequent breakages on that much-used KL.

The guitar has settled back down and is playing smoothly and consistently. The RKR is easier to use and everything's in tune.

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I wonder why it broke in the first place! Glad you worked it out. I’m amazed that, with all your years of playing, you’ve not been underneath your guitars very much. I can’t stay out from under mine.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Up until two years ago, I never dared touch any guitar underneath. I'm not mechanically adept (much to the dismay of my late-father who was an engineer by trade) and I previously had only the sketchiest notion of how these things work.

Having to start dialysis in early-2021 meant an end to my playing pro and it also meant that I could no longer count on being able to see a tech (usually in Nashville) when something went wrong.

So: these bumbling toddler-steps that I detail here show my slow learning-curve.

In an earlier thread, I told how I'd experienced problems with my RKR; that single stamped-metal crank is bearing the entire load of five pulls! It's a wonder it lasted for twenty years. I can only assume that adding the 10th lower a while ago increased the stress. I found the BC had fractured at the cross-shaft which began to turn at 90 degrees; the more I tried to retune the pulls, the worse it got. I flipped the guitar and spotted it right away.

It seems (from the responses I got) that this is a weakness in LeGrandes. They really need a heavy-duty crank in that particular spot.

(PS: Now I can't jump in the car and drive to Nashville, I AM under my guitar as much as I'm sitting behind it! I've had some invaluable help right here on the Forum with some informed advice.)
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Steve Cattermole · From: California, USA

Hey Roger, I'm glad you brought your guitar back to life, I know how much you enjoy playing it. I tried working on my steel once with horrible results, one little change and it was unplayable. It makes me realize how lucky I am to be a half hour away from Jim Palenscar's Steel Guitars of North County. He had my steel playing better than ever in 5 minutes. Good on you that you did your own repair. I was happy to see you have the A-Bb-B on C6, I really like that change. Keep up the good work, we'll Skype soon. Catt

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I don't mind admitting that it was touch-and-go for a moment, Catt! I had visions of packing-and-shipping.

I'm still having an issue with raising the lower A on C6. For some reason, it just won't tune up. I checked my old Emmons rodding chart and it's in the right spot. Pedal 4 raises both As to C okay (I'll be changing that, I expect).

Good to hear from you! I wish I was nearer Pali's shop!!! There's nobody remotely close to SW FL.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Paul Mozen · From: Fl, USA

Roger, I'm glad you got things working. I just changed my Carter D10 from Day to Emmons. Basically switch A and C pedals. It doesn't feel right however. I wish we had a good tech down here in S. Fla. Do you know any?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Paul:

Bonds Music in Wildwood do, apparently, take repairs but they've always been vague as to the time it would take and the cost.

How I miss the days when I could drop in to Emmons in Burlington, NC unannounced and get changes done while I waited!

I've had to learn the basics. Now, I can do some fundamental stuff even though I'll admit that it's still 'trial and error' sometimes.

I managed to get my RKR to raise the As to A# and on up to B. That's freed up P4 and I switched that to lower 5 (G to F) and raise 10 to D.

Maybe you've got the leverage wrong on the Carter. There is a rodding chart online somewhere from John Fabian. That should clarify where things should be hooked up.

But I agree! A good tech somewhere in this corner of FL would be a boon.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Paul Mozen · From: Fl, USA

Thanks Roger,
I am looking for the rodding chart. Now since I changed my A and C pedals I am changing my E raise and lowers to the RK

It is definitely not easy, the holes in the changer and the BC that you use really make a difference. Trial and error all day.

Good health and hang in there.

Paul

PS I hope I don't have to drive to Nashville.....

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Paul:

I know the Carter rodding chart is online somewhere! I'm afraid I don't have a link but I saw it only weeks ago. Do a search on here, perhaps?

Talking of 'trial & error', I've blundered somewhere. My P4 - lowering 9,6,3 on E9 and the two pulls on C6 that I describe above - is inexplicably ultra-stiff and heavy!! I really have to push hard on the pedal but, then, some changes go past their destination while others barely make it. It's a good job that it's an 'occasional' pedal on both necks.

It's been suggested that the lower-return-springs on E9's 3 and 6 might need slackening off a bit as the factory wouldn't have set them for 'lowers' on those strings. Well, I tried and it helped a tiny bit: but not much.

Talk about a bull in a china shop! That's me working under a steel. Smile

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Here it is:

https://www.scribd.com/document/544741380/Carter-Rodding-Chart
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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