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Topic: why do steels sound flat, exept Paul Franklin and co |
Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 11:02 am |
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| most of the time i watch live videos of country performances including my own ones the steel guitar sounds flat. What are the reasons, what can help? |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 11:58 am
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Besides the obvious bar technique issues, playing a pedal guitar requires a comprehensive tuning scheme to play in tune through all the chord and interval changes. Unfortunately this is not often taught in undergraduate steel guitar school.
For example here's a common D10 copedant with one of Jeff Newman's sweetening scemes listed.
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 2:59 pm
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One reason could be some "equal tempered" bandmate, keyboard or guitar occupying the same frequency/range where you are laying down the steel guitar part.
Any huge/wide sustained "equaltempered" chord played by other bandmember is definitly gonna give you a tough time if you try add in some steel guitar chords there also.
More likely to sound out of tune w 3note steel guitar voicings than 2 note intervals or just single note lines.
Two note intervals or single notes can always be made to sound in tune if the monitoring is ok and you trust your ears more than what your eyes tell you about should be in tune or not.
Sounding in tune w a steel guitar takes a lot of practise and a lot of listening for beeing in tune.
If you can hear that you are out of tune when performing then you are on the right track to fix it.
Listening to a recording of a performance can be a brutal experience but also a very educational one. Been there, done that.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 3:09 pm Re: why do steels sound flat, exept Paul Franklin and co
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| Norbert Dengler wrote: |
| most of the time i watch live videos of country performances including my own ones the steel guitar sounds flat. What are the reasons, what can help? |
It’s because most players now use a tuner instead of their ears to tune their guitar. (They’re looking instead of listening.) If you peruse the many “tuning threads” that have appeared here for the past 30+ years, one thing stands out. Almost every pro player has his own set of “tweaks” in their tuning. And that’s because, most all of the time, what works for one player does not work for another! And this tuning conundrum will go on until players realize that fact. A set of particular “tuning offsets” will only work consistently on one particular guitar, one tuning, one particular set of string gauges, one pedal/lever setup, and with one particular player’s hands.
If Jeff, or Buddy, or Lloyd, or Paul were to have switched guitars, they inevitably would have to retune slightly to make that other player’s guitar work for them. There are just too many variables involved, and I can’t explain it any simpler than that.
Those charts and offsets everyone’s looking at are just rough approximations; they just get you into the ballpark. Your (hopefully) trained ears have to do the rest. 
And if they don’t or can’t, then yes, you’re in Flat City. (Or Sharptown.) |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 3:48 pm Re: why do steels sound flat, exept Paul Franklin and co
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Tone colour can also have an effect on the listener, which is why orchestral principal flute and French horn players tune slightly sharp to counteract the inherent mellowness in their instruments. They don't analyse it that way - they just know it stops them sounding flat when they have a solo to play. Pedal steel has a very pure waveform, and the lack of partials can be interpreted by the ear as flatness of pitch.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 5:02 pm
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Hadn't thought of mellow tones sounding flat, but it makes sense. I had a problem with playing flat because I was using a tuning chart where the E's were at 440 and most of the rest were below that. Happened on a Jeff Newman chart that preserved the same relationship between notes but kicked everything up a couple of hz. MUCH better.
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 5:03 pm
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A more simple answer would be that Paul can play in tune. He can play a session where most every other instrument is pitch corrected later and Paul will still be in tune. Years ago I went to a Dire Straits concert. Paul came out on stage for a few minutes before it started and tuned by ear. He played flawlessly during that concert.
A reason some of the classic older country music sounds "flat" to our ears is that the overall tuning was very different. Playing in tune was a much bigger target. With that Lloyd Green sounds perfect all the time.
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Bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 5:17 pm Re: why do steels sound flat, exept Paul Franklin and co
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Tone colour can also have an effect on the listener, which is why orchestral principal flute and French horn players tune slightly sharp to counteract the inherent mellowness in their instruments. They don't analyse it that way - they just know it stops them sounding flat when they have a solo to play... |
Here's a quote from a guy that's reputed to be pretty good with music:
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| The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, plays horribly out of tune -- consistently sharp. '' Mr. Metheny believes that Kenny G's music should be assessed as jazz, not as instrumental pop. |
Be that as it may, most of the orchestral instruments only play one note at a time, and the different harmonic structure of different instruments does aid somewhat, in their blending with other instruments. But what most of us pedal steelers notice is our playing being out with ourselves. Our chords just aren't in tune. The more strings and pedals involved, the harder it is to have everything come together right. Our ears seek, and want, to hear perfect intonation. But when those "beats" come knockin' in, everything sours. Some people have trained their ears to accept more beats than others, chords being "out" don't bother them as much. I envy them. The rest of us, those with good ears, just suffer and cringe. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 5:54 pm
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It is NOT the Steel that sounds Flat; it IS the Player that is playing flat(or out of tune).
So Tune your steel 5 thousand different ways; but you will NEVER play/sound in tune until you progress/tune YOUR EAR.
Practice with Fixed Done; here ya go to this link and select a tone on piano and it will ring out...start with single string and hear the intonation; hear the vibrations...then hear the blend with that tone and your string; then go from there....all string combos in the key tone...; then work on other tones. Turn the stupid reverb on amp OFF..and get rid of your built in strap on tuner that is NOT in tune with anything...and practice; you will notice a HUGE difference in short then long amount of time. Here ya go>
https://www.dronetonetool.com/
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 6:01 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
It is NOT the Steel that sounds Flat; it IS the Player that is playing flat(or out of tune).
So Tune your steel 5 thousand different ways; but you will NEVER play/sound in tune until you progress/tune YOUR EAR.
Practice with Fixed Done; here ya go to this link and select a tone on piano and it will ring out...start with single string and hear the intonation; hear the vibrations...then hear the blend with that tone and your string; then go from there....all string combos in the key tone...; then work on other tones. Turn the stupid reverb on amp OFF..and get rid of your built in strap on tuner that is NOT in tune with anything...and practice; you will notice a HUGE difference in short then long amount of time. Here ya go>
https://www.dronetonetool.com/
Ricky |
Ricky, I can't help but wonder how one can use organ tones like that that seem to be rich with multiple overtones? I've been using synthetic drone notes created for me by a student, those are very clear single pitch drones, even if they actually do have overtones that I can't hear. Just curious, not criticizing...
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 6:10 pm
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exactly what Ricky said , it’s not guitar , it’s the player , you can either play that thing in tune, or you can’t … I had two first class players at my house , playing in front of me , Danny Muhammad and Wayne Dahl , Danny tuning everything straight up 440 , and Wayne using sweetened tuning, they both play 100% dead on , in tune …
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 7:40 pm
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oK John here ya go>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvUzRnbyT2w
BUT!!!! the over tones of those organ Drone tones; give you a Center to focus on....and that is the best way to train your ear....as in real world on stage; everyone is playing and you need to find the center of all those overtones and this helps you train for that...
I play a lot of Movie sound tracks with 25 piece orchestra and it used to be very very hard until I learned to hear that center and the conductor is now very very happy to use me.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Bill Fisher
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 9:35 pm
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It's called pitch. Like in perfect pitch. You either have it, or you don't. Sorry, if it's not pleasing to you, but that is my answer.
Bill |
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Daniel Bailey
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 5:41 am
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| I tune to the train whistle (Bmaj6) in MBTA/Amtrak country. Doesn't everyone? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 6:22 am
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If you sound in tune with a piano player, you've done it right. Temper tuning in conjunction with cabinet drop. Each guitar may be different. 3rds being critical. A 3rd tuned straight up sounds very ugly in a chord.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Roy Carroll
From:
North of a Round Rock
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 7:49 am
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I play quite often with a piano player that uses an electronic piano. I use the MA9 setting on my Strobe tuner and I never have had any issues with playing in tune with him. I have used a straight up tuning with him before and he complained that I was out of tune. I have used a equal temperment with much success as well. It's all in the ears and hands.  P.S. Paul Franklin sounds in tune because...
well, He IS Paul Franklin!
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Just north of the Weird place, south of Georgetown |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 10:11 am
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I think one of the reasons you hear less steel on records now is a lot of the producers are keyboard players and they perceive us to be out of tune because we like sweetened thirds. Also as mentioned above, we like full chords, which adds to the problem. I am now playing a dinner theater show with charts for a few intricate pop songs. I have found while I am vamping that two note chords lay better in the mix than three notes.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 11:15 am
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thaks for your input, guys, i used to try different pre sets on my peterson tuners, they were okay but never really satisfied me.
the best instruction i got was on the Paul Franklin basic course where he takes his I phone, tunes the E`s straight and does the rest by ear. following that improved my intonation and I wrote down my offsets for my guitar.
anyhow, if i record myself in a bandtstand situation i`m frustrated of course i work on it but if i listen to Buddy Emmons i`m tempted to give up sometimes... |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 3:31 pm
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Also, the culprit might be the bar not being square with the fret board. Having the heel of the bar slightly slanting left is kind of a common fault. You'll sound flat most of the time in that configuration. Developmental basics.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2023 11:01 am Out of tune?
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Just use vibrato!
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Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Mar 2023 12:43 pm
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What Dennis said has value. I've seen quite a few players constantly slanting the bar.
Also, I'm not a fan of using drone tracks for practice because I feel we should practice with music (since that's what we're playing). Using drone tracks for practice is like learning to swim without getting in the water. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Mar 2023 3:33 pm
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| I have found while I am vamping that two note chords lay better in the mix than three notes. |
Jeff Newman mentions this in at least one of his courses where he is teaching scales harmonised in thirds and sixths and warns off using triads.
I use them anyway, but I'm always ready to slant the bar a little to "unsweeten" the thirds if necessary.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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