Pedals hard to push down on Emmons P/P

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

My Emmons P/P is the only steel I've ever played and I'm thinking now that the pedals should be easier to press down. I think that's the case because I've noticed to get both the A&B pedals fully pressed or the B&C pedals fully pressed, the amount of downforce I have to apply requires me to slightly raise my heel off the floor to get the extra leverage from the weight of my leg on the pedals. Two questions:

1) Is this "normal"?
2) If not, what should I look at cleaning/lubing... or something else?

Note, I haven't disassembled anything (the guitar is set up and functions quite well other than this issue), but I have tried flushing some naptha through the changer and other moving parts. I then re-lubed with tri-flow. I wonder if I need to really soak the changer with more oil or something?

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

While any & all steels want to be properly lubricated, for stiff pedals on a P/P I lean toward misadjustment. There is no way I would attempt to guide you on how to set it up (something I've taught myself and that I'm still learning).
I would certainly suggest finding a P/P technician. A well set up P/P should have a nice, fairly easy touch with satisfying positive stops. Little things like poor spring adjustments can make a surprising amount of difference in feel.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

One small thing to try is to take the pedal return springs off the A and B pedals. I take them off all my push pulls as they give it a mushy feel. Leave on the rest of the pedals as many of them need it, though the first two pedals do not. Probably also need a set up. I’ve had 10+Emmons guitars and they all have had different pedal action, but adjusted properly, all were fairly easy action. Not like an all pull, but easy.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Yeah, a PP that's set up right should be fairly light. Pretty close to an all pull guitar.

On raises (ABC pedals) you're only pulling against the string and the pedal return spring - so that should be pretty consistent across most PPs.

You can take the spring off, but if it's otherwise set up right, this isn't really needed.

Only other thing I can think of - beside lubrication) is that the hooks aren't in the right holes on the fingers.

As you move down on the holes (closer to the body) you lose mechanical advantage.

I would suggest looking at photos of PPs set up by pros and compare which holes the hooks are in - it's pretty standard for normal setups.

Clem Schmidt's book also tells you which holes the hooks should be in for different pedals and different situations.

Can you post a photo of the changer fingers/hooks on your guitar?
A photo of the other end showing the bell cranks and how those are set up will also help. Maybe we can see something weird.

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

Thanks for the replies so far. Here are some pictures that hopefully will help.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Nice photos! Thanks for posting.

Only thing I notice on the pull hooks, on my guitar, the hooks for strings 5 and 6 are in the middle hole.
I guess this would make for an easier pull, and I don't think it's wrong, just different.
Plus, those hooks look a little dodgy.

Nothin else sticks out to me, at the changer or at the bell cranks. I'm no super pro, but I get around mine pretty well. With some studying.

It does look a little dry at the bell cranks and swivels. Hard to tell from a photo, I know.
Another thing I've seen is the cross rods sometimes get sticky at the ends where they insert into the body. you can shift them from side to side and add a little lube.
Happens a lot on A B pedals cause they get used so much.
Careful to not add too much, I heard somebody say the oil can get into the wood there and mess with the mica.
I think my guitar had some grease there. Something thicker. Maybe someone can chime in as to the best lube for that spot.

Another thing you can do is next time the strings are off, try actuating everything by hand (everything) and you can really feel if something doesn't move smoothly. Check for things rubbing against each other when actuated. The hooks can rub against the changer fingers if they're bent too wide or made of thick wire. Check that adjacent bell cranks aren't rubbing against each other.

Don't forget the pedals need lube too.

But maybe you're right, maybe the changer is gummed up.
I think if you feel around the changer finders with the strings off, you have a good chance of finding the rub. hahah! Just made that up.

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

Turn your guitar over and observe the raise fingers as you press the pedals. The raise fingers should reach their pitch and contact the cabinet deck at exactly the same time. If the fingers reach cabinet contact before the pedal reaches its pedal stop, the balance springs at the end of the rods will continue to compress and make the pedal action seem stiff.
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Jerry Jones

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Jerry has good advice. That's about the worst thing you can have happening on a PP.

Sorry, my typing was confusing. Moving the hook away from the body makes the pull easier - longer lever.

I think I was saying your hooks being in the hole farthest from the body would make for the easiest pull.

Each cross shaft has a little spring (should have) behind the rod on the apron side. you can compress that to shift the shaft fore or aft to get a little lube in there.[/i]

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

It appears that the changer fingers are contacting the body at the same time as the pedal stops. I'm going to try re-cleaning the changer naptha again but use compressed air this time to aid in flushing out any gunk. I'll also try a suggestion I got from a Jeff Newman video to use 30W oil fairly liberally on the changer afterwards instead of the fairly modest amount of tri-flow from the small bottle I have. And third, I think I'm well overdue for a new set of strings so I'll put new ones on. I probably won't get around to doing all of this for a couple days, so if anything there doesn't sound like a good idea let me know.

Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

Brian,
Trying to clean the changer without taking it apart will likely cause more problems than it will fix, the solvent won't remove all the old grease/oil and will degrade what remains causing it to get sticky; adding more lubricant on top of this won't help the sticky situation in the long run either. If the fingers move manually without a sticking feeling, that's not your problem.
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Brian, first thing I’d do is take compression spring off rod on string 3 & 5, they tend to make mushy feel. Just set to where they contact body with pedal down, then adjust your pedal stop to contact bar just a milli second after changer finger contacts body. Then adjust strings 6 and 10 to contact body same time 3 & 5 do.
Timing is very important on a push pull. With guitar upside down, string 3 should be in bottom hole, 5 in middle hole, 6 in middle hole and 10 in top hole. I always take pedal springs off A & B pedals and either replace with weaker springs or just leave them off.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

The essence of getting a P/P guitar to play easily and smoothly is timing the changes on any given pedal/ lever, as stated above by Jerry.

In most cases, on the E 9th neck, pedals involve strings an octave apart being raised or lowered a similar interval. The higher string requires a longer throw, while the lower string requires a shorter one.

In a perfect world both changes would begin and end at the same moment in time. If the lower string change (which has shorter & quicker travel) reaches the body (or lower stop screw) while the higher change is still traveling, any additional pedal pressure is divided between moving the higher change towards its endpoint and applying more force to the already stopped lower change. Basically, the additional force is wasted by pushing the lower changer finger against an “immovable object”. Thus, It requires excessive force to get the higher change completed.

On most modern all pull guitars there are multiple leverage options at both the changer (2-3) & at the bellcrank (4-14) for approximating the goal of having both changes start and stop together. However, the P/P is a horse of a different color. It has just 3 raise leverage options and no lower choices which makes the balancing of the two changes trickier. Other than moving collars closer or farther away from bellcrank engagement points, the most one can do is select a raisechanger hole closer to the changer axle to speed up the longer change and/or choose one farther from the axle we to slow down the quicker one. For lowers, no such leverage options exist.

To mitigate the problem, a compression spring (of various length) can be used between the lowest change rod collar & bellcrank swivel so as to effectively slow down this quicker change from reaching its end-point. Even though compressing the spring is, in a sense, a waste of energy, it is much less so, when compared to the even greater energy wasted by pushing the lower string changer finger against an immovable object.

Timing the pulls (or pushes) allows you to hit a “sweet spot” where both changes end at the same exact moment in time together. If this is accomplished for all pedals & levers, the PP will play nearly as smoothly and essily as most all-pulls guitars.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Other people have gone into the detail that I can't & won't (because unlike the help I try to provide with all-pull guitars, I have no business trying to advise on tech'ing someone else's push pull).

But the compression springs are what I was referring to at the top of this thread.
Between self-educating via trial and error and some study on Clem Schmitz's instruction material, I arrived at a very sweet playing steel after having found it to be stiff with poor end-of-pedal feel.

Shortening some springs, removing unnecessary springs, adjusting rod collars with & without springs to improve the timing of the pulls.....these all made night & day differences, both on my 12 string Emmons and on my friend's GS-10 (to which I added a couple of levers and gave an overall tune-up.)

First step was making sure that all stops (except secondary stops such as the F lever, 4th string and A pedal 5th string) were happening at the changer and then adjusting the pedal stops, lever stops, the rod collars & the springs to work with the changer stops.

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

Thank you, Jon, Kelcey, Tony, Mike and others for the input here. It's very helpful in getting the through the P/P learning curve. I have Clem's book and videos which I went over when I first got the guitar and started playing... it was a little too much, too soon at the time, but I think I'll take this opportunity to really go over it more carefully keep in mind the helpful advice here.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Brian, the trouble with a lot of people is they think oil is the magic fix for all guitars. Not true, if you have to oil a guitar, especially changer or any part more than twice a year and I mean oil very very lightly, then something is wrong. You people that are squirting oil every where on your guitars every two weeks are doing it wrong.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

this is how you should clean your steel ….

https://youtu.be/_H-I7Jv9Aww
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www.steelguitarsonline.com

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I am in the Henry camp on removing springs on 3 &5 pull rods AND return springs on pedals 1&2. My friend Tony is a PP wiz as is Lynn Stafford, I am not bad either. Folks are always ready to help.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

Quick update and another question. I spent some more time carefully going over every inch of the underside to help my own learning and understanding of this beast and to check (or re-check) a few things mentioned above. The guitar seems reasonably clean and there's not much gunk or resistance in moving things around by hand on the changer, so that's good.

I found that the A pedal stop was actually hitting ever so slightly AFTER the changer finger hit the body, so I turned that screw (circled below) just about a quarter of a turn and the action is a bit nicer as its not compressing those springs on the rod ends like it was (slightly) before.

The second and probably most obvious thing I found is that the spring on the A pedal rod (also circled below) is much stiffer on my A pedal than either the B or C pedals. I can easily see how this makes it harder to press the A pedal. Is there any reason why you would want your A pedal spring to be stiffer than the B and C pedals? If not, can the right springs be found at the hardware store or is there somewhere in particular that can sell me just the right spring?

And I included a picture of the whole guitar because who here doesn't like pictures of steel guitars?!

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Just disconnect those pedal return springs on pedals A & B with a needle nose pliers. You should notice a significant improvement in ease of pedal action.

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

Ahh ok. Someone else had mentioned doing that and I misunderstood the terminology. I'm not too eager to start removing rod collars and pull rod springs just yet, but these little pedal rod springs I could do, even just as a test. Thank you.

Brian Spratt · From: Oklahoma, USA

I took the pedal return springs off and the change felt too drastic with no springs at all, so I picked up some lighter springs at the hardware store and BAM! this thing feels sooo good under my feet now. Thanks everyone!

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Awesome. Usually just spending time time under the hood does the trick.

I MAY have spent more time looking at the underside of by PP than playing it. Maybe.

Easy to do if you're in to mechanical things.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Mike Polansky · From: Austin, TX

I have been having a similar issue on my pedal steel where when depressing the B pedal and letting go of the A pedal, the A pedal would not return to proper pedals up pitch until I fully let off the B pedal.

It turned out that the actual pedal bar had so much 55 year old gummed up grease inside the axle that the pedals could not move freely. I disassembled, degreased with WD-40, regreased with sewing machine oil, and now my pedals not only move independently as they should, they are also substantially easier to push. Might be worth a try.

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