C6 - lower both Cs (or not)?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

For some reason, I have both my Cs (3rd and 7th) dropping to a B on my MKL.

Now it's getting in my way. I know I can just wind it off but, before I do, I thought I'd search the topic on here. Perhaps I didn't phrase it properly, but I got no results.

I don't recall adding the 7th lower to my guitar but there it is! Does anyone out there lower both? I've explored the copedants of our more significant players and, while some might have this change split between two levers, most only lower the high string.

It's less crucial, but I have the same query regarding raising the Cs (my MKR); who raises both? I've only got the high C going up to C#.

Any thoughts?

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

I'm pretty new to the C6th party so this will mean little, but I'm raising both C's and only lowering the top C.
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Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Roger

I suggest leaving the bottom C (string 7) unchanged = no Raise or Lower on 7th string

Raise and Lower the top C (string 3) on two separate right leg levers.

That bottom C note needs to remain unchanged for 7th chords - ie, Root on the 7th string.

Ron

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

I lower string 3 only but raise both to C#. I also raise both to D on another lever which I find incredibly useful.

I believe Paul Franklin lowers his string 7 C to B but on a separate pedal or lever than his string 3 lower.
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Ron; I've been coming to that conclusion after trying all combinations. I'm way behind my own E9 curve on the C neck but it's almost become my preferred neck.

I know when I ordered the guitar in 2000, it was just the 3rd that raised and lowered. Back then, though, I hardly played any C6th. Somewhere along the line, either I had a moment of madness or some nameless tech 'had his way' with my guitar. It's probably the latter because it's only recently that I've acquired some basic skills so I can switch pulls on my Emmons.

I momentarily had P4 raising both Es to F; while that has its virtues, I've just restored the old P4 - raising the As to Bs. I see more potential in that.

My MKV currently raises 10 and 6 to D and F. I'm considering changing that to a 'reverse' P6.

Steve Cattermole · From: California, USA

Hey Roger, I only lower string 3, but I raise both 3 & 7 to C# . One cool change I got from Rick Schmidt is raising str 4 & 8 from A to Bb to B with a half stop on a knee lever. It free's up your ped 4 to try other things. The other change I like is to lower str 4 & 8 a half step, with pedals 5 & 6 you get a dom 7, with ped 6 you get a Maj 7. These chords in C would be at fret 4. Happy to hear you're hooked on C6,I've been for 12 years and I'm still finding pedal combinations. What a blast, have fun. Catt PS. About 4 years ago Rick posted videos of my set in Phoenix , and you were one of the first to respond with a complimentary post. It made me really happy , I always wanted to thank you, so here it is,Thank you very much

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

Hi Roger,

I only lower 3 and don’t think I’ve ever noticed anyone lowering 7.

Another option for the vertical is to lower 5 from G to F. Makes a very cool Maurice’esque Very Happy

FMaj7 on fret 0. I’ve had it for a long time and would not give it up. It’s become a staple in my vocabulary, such as it is.

Like Cat, I lower 4 and 8 a half, another great change.
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Roger -

My LKV is "The Opposite of Pedal 6 Change"

You will find many useful applications of that specific change.

My Set-Up for your reference and possible use:

LKL = Lower String 4
LKR = Raise String 4
LKV = "The opposite of Pedal 6 Change"

RKL = Lower String 3
RKR = Raise String 3

Per BE's C6th :
Lowers move to the Left
Raises move to the Right

Take care -

Ron

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Not sure I have ever seen anyone lower both C's, but sure it has been done by someone. I only lower the top C. On another lever, I raise only the top C to C#, my middle C is raised to C# on pedal 8, which is actually my LKL. If I need both C's raised to C#, I just use the 2 knee levers together,
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

First, my grateful thanks to all of you for responding!

The 7th lower? That's already history; I've wound it off. I never wanted it but discovered one day that it was there. That will remain a mystery.

Just to be clear: I do currently raise the 7th along with the 3rd (my LKR; my first post is confusing because I'd forgotten that I'd wound-off the 7th raise at some point) but there's no need; I can wind that off again, because it achieves nothing that pedal 8 doesn't already do. (As for P8, I use it most along with raising the 3rd. While I might play that A/#9 chord occasionally, I rarely use it without sweetening it with the LKR.)

Dale: thanks for your input. You're making excellent progress on the back neck. All suggestions are valid.

Scott: Yes: Paul's set-up was one I looked at (obviously!) I noticed he splits them.

Steve C.: You're welcome! I remember enjoying your playing! Rick was kind enough to share his excellent D-12 setup with me when I was investigating the D13th project. I immediately saw that logic of a whole-step raise on the As with a half-stop. Looking more closely, however, I see that my RKR only raises the 4th string, not the 8th. To put Rick's change on there, I need another rod. I'm also hesitant to add more to RKR - it's moving three E9 strings (2,9,10) and, of course, is my V/P foot. IF I could achieve a half-stop AND not add too much weight to that lever, I may try it.

Bill: Hi, and thanks. Yes, I also lower both As (RKL).

Ron: Particular thanks to you for your suggestions.
My LKV currently raises 6 and 10 to F and D. It's a pretty change and was suggested by Buck Reid a few years ago. I'm pondering at this moment whether to turn LKV into the 'reverse P6' ( a simple switch) or to leave it as it is and turn P4 into RP6.

All of this takes no account of Bill's appealing suggestion to lower the G to an F. I can see the potential there.

Thanks again, guys!
(Edited to remove some waffling that was only of interest to me! Musical goals, etc....)

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

A PS:

I like the idea of 'lowering to the left, raising to the right'. It gives me parity on C6 with my Day-setup on E9; anything to reduce the mental load, eh? Smile

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

One last thought:

I'm either going to switch LKV to 'reverse' P6 and have my pedal 4 lower the G to an F or do it the other way around (LKV lowering the G, P4 = 'reverse' P6).

What would you choose? Those that already have those changes: can you see a preference?

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

Hi Roger,

I can’t really comment since I’ve never had the “flip flop pedal” Laughing

as I heard one of our most proficient C6 players refer to the reverse P6 change.
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Roger

If you already have a Left knee left and Right knee Right above your 5th and 6th pedals, my suggestion would be to put 'the reverse of P6' on you Left Knee Vertical.

and use P4 for your other change of Lowering G to and F

Ron

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Bill: Buck spoke enthusiastically about the 'reverse P6', although he didn't call it 'flip-flop', I'll admit.

I'd like to try it.

Ron: that's logical and I'll do what you suggest.

Right now, my P4 is back to the standard 4 & 8 raise to B. That certainly has its uses and I'm tempted to copy Rick Schmidt's idea: he raises his As to A#, then to B, on his RKR.

I'm short one RKR rod (I'm only raising the 4th to A#) but I'll get one somewhere.

Thanks for all the input, guys!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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