Newbie Question: E9 vs Universal for beginners

Bill McCloskey · Posted 8 Sep 2022 7:45 am

I've been a lap steel player for over 20 years, but recently acquired a Williams 12 string 7 pedal, 5 knee lever Universal.

The person I got it from had converted it to a extended E9 with 4 pedals, so the top 10 strings are standard E9 copedent. I have been thinking of converting it back to universal. Here are my questions:

1. I already talked to Bill Rudolph and they can do the work, but I would need to ship the guitar to them.

2. John Widgren in Ct. can do the work and he is local so I won't have to ship it. But he can't do it for at least 3 months.

His suggestion was to take the bottom two strings off and just learn standard E9th first. My thought is I could just play E9th (I've subscribed to Paul Franklin's course) with 10 strings for the next 3 months or so, learn the basics, and then convert it in 3 months to the universal. OR I could trade the universal for a standard E9th now and forget Universal. Or I could trade the universal for a D10 now. Or I could send it to Williams, have them do the conversion, hope for the best with shipping and just start learning on the Universal.

Right now, I've taken the bottom two strings off and just trying to learn the E9th neck. My gut says, stick with that and then get the universal changed over in 3 or 4 months and decide what I want to do then (ie trade it for a S10 or D10 or keep the universal). I have plenty of lap steels if I want to play jazz C6 stuff in the meantime.

Any words of wisdom?

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

You seem to have made the right choice already.
It's not as if you'll have completely mastered the E9 in a few months.

The Williams is a great guitar but also easy to work on. Any decent mechanic can do the work - no need to ship in my view.

There would be no harm in putting the bottom strings back on so you get used to them being there. You will still have a kind of extended E9 when you go universal - that's one reason I like it.
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Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

I have a Universal with a couple of tweaks. On the E9 side my 9th string is a B raised to D(on RKR). Very handy for me; The D is wonderful but hitting it accidentally is most uncool and having it available only at need helps a lot. I also have a whole-step raise(on pedal A) on my 12th to C#. Also handy for pedals down.

I use 3 fingerpicks (thanks, Bob Case) and I'm not great with picking groups so with those tweaks I can get big extended E9 chords plus some B6 things without getting too many Lon Chaney Jr tones! Winking

Bill McCloskey · Posted 8 Sep 2022 8:56 am

Thanks Dave and Ian.

Dave, on the Williams standard Universal, the B to D raise on the 9th string is on LKL and the 12th string C# raise is on pedal 5.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

In your situation, I’d definitely go universal. And 3 or 4 months playing it as E9 won’t hurt a thing.

If I had it to do over again, I might end up with exactly the guitar you have, but I’m a slow enough learner I can’t face starting over. I guess I’m stuck carrying two necks.

I’d put the bottom two back on, even if you just ignore them. Get used to counting from the right place, and 12 strings clearly is not an issue foreign to you! Suspect once you get past the leg mechanics you might find the chordal stuff much easier with this setup.

Realistically, you’re not a beginner at all. The Alkire experience puts you away ahead of the curve.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I agree with Ken. Getting accustomed to the number of strings under your hands is quite a challenge if you go from 10 to 12.

Those two 'extra' strings will come in very handy: just as well if you assimilate them early on.

Very best of luck: I have a 12 string Williams coming, but it'll be tuned to D13th. I'm expecting a very steep learning-curve after so many years with a D-10!

Bill McCloskey · Posted 8 Sep 2022 10:15 am

"Realistically, you’re not a beginner at all. The Alkire experience puts you away ahead of the curve."

The grips are certainly easier on the Pedal that is for sure, and you are correct. I can see the Alkire stuff is going to pay off dividends. I can't imagine trying to tame this beast from ground zero.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

When I went uni I was uncertain what to do with the bottom two strings on the E9 pedals. I saw little value in raising 12 with the other Bs or 11 with the other Es, because all that gives is thirds too low in the voicing to be much help.

So now my A pedal lowers 12 to A to give a power chord with pedals down, and the F lever lowers 11 to C# to also give a root in the A/F position. Suits me, anyway!
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I like those low strings. I’ve played both extended E9 and Universal. It’s a 12 string guitar - you can ignore the bottom two but I wouldn’t take them off.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

I would suggest you get the guitar set up with the tuning you want as quickly a possible, Whether you chose E9th EX or 12 string Universal. If you start learning with only 10 strings on the guitar it will take some time when you go to 12, Learning the position to place your thumb and fingers for a grip.

I went from a S10 E9th tuned guitar to a S12 Universal tuning about 5 years ago. Even changed the D (lowers 4-8)knee lever from LKL to RKR. And LKR F Knee Lever (Raises 4-8-11) to RKL to match Jeff Newman's Universal Tuning. Had very little problem with the knee levers.

Relearning grips on U 12 took the most work. Moving my thumb pick 1 string took more work, Than both knee levers did.
An often used grip on E9th, 10B - 8E - 6G# on E9th neck, On JN's 12s UNI. tuning, The grip is 9B - 8E - 6G# to get the same notes. Or get the same notes 10G# - 9B -8E with an octave lower G#.

If I was starting to learn steel guitar today I would go U 12 from the first day.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

It's set up as an Extended E9 so I'd stick with that. Throw on the 2 bass strings, hook #11 up to pedal B, and just play it.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I played D-10 for 8 years before switching to U-12. If I had to do it all over again, I'd just start on a U-12. When I made the switch, I was playing D-10 in a band and played the U-12 for 2 weeks at home, then brought the U-12 to the job. It was a struggle for a couple of nights, but I never looked back. I was playing most of my swing tunes on the D-10 E9th neck, but the 9th string (D) got in the way. After the switch, it all fell into place. Having the D string on your E9th makes the switch more challenging. Plus, being able to pull the B to D is a nice move on the U-12. The low G# pulling it to A on pedal B also provides a very nice harmony that you can't get on the standard E9th. I also lower my 6th and 10th strings G# to F# with a kneelever which also makes some nice low end transitions. Make the switch from 10 to 12 now and save yourself some learning curve time.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I am in agreement with choosing a tuning and sticking with it.

The obvious difference between standard 12-string E9 vs Uni tuning lies with strings 12-9. The Uni copedent is much more complicated because it tries to cover everything available on a D10.

The Franklin E9 course you have enrolled in will work fine on your S12 as it is, but I also agree with keeping the bottom 2 strings on and learning the standard 10-string grips as taught.

If you switch from S12/E9 to Uni, you will have a learning adjustment to make because of strings 12-9 and the additional changes to the copedent.

A personal observation - Purveyors of Uni tuning seem to regard string 9(D) on standard E9 as the red-haired stepchild of the copedent, and are grateful to have it “out of the way” and on demand with a lever. This will probably remain a mystery to me, since I am content with the seemingly endless potential of E9 with D open on string 9 and have no interest in moving on from it at this point. But, you never know unless you try it, of course.

Great players are able to play any kind of music on either tuning.

Bob Watson · From: Champaign, Illinois, U.S.

I agree with everything that Ken Pippas said, including the suggestion that you put the two lower strings back on even though you'll be spending 3 months concentrating on the top ten. I've played D10's for the most part and the hardest thing for me when playing a Uni is dealing with the extra strings. IMO, you might as well get used to having them there right from the get go. Most beginner's who start on D10's don't get around to seriously learning the C neck 'til they've had a few years of E9 under your belt. Also, I think you might consider checking out the Johnny Cox D13 tuning. He says its the best way to get the best of both worlds, E9 and C6 and he's spent time playing a Universal tuning too. Johnny Cox is as good as it gets and if I was considering going the Universal route, I would be taking a good look at his D13 tuning. Food for thought. Best of luck whichever way you decide to go.

Fred · From: Amesbury, MA

Put those strings back on and change it over to universal as soon as your local guy can do it. As an Alkire player you’ll really appreciate pedals 4-7. Just try not to think of it as two tunings. It’s a single tuning with multiple positions. Anyway, that’s how I see as a long time non pedal player who picked up pedals after many years of saying “Never!”

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I realize it's just an opinion, but I'd leave it as an extended E9.

In my case, while I currently play a D-10, I have a 12-string guitar on order (a Williams) with a version of D13th. I know it's going to be a challenge learning new grips and, more particularly, getting used to the 'new' 5th string (a B in the case of a D-based tuning but the equivalent of a C# between the existing 4th and 5th strings on E9: a C#).

It will take some getting used to and I'll give it my all but, if it proves insurmountable after a year, I won't hesitate to retune my 7+6 12 string to a loaded Ext. E9!

Think of the bottom end I'll get!

Here's my D13th:

Bill McCloskey · Posted 12 Sep 2022 7:44 am

Thanks to everyone who responded. After reading every post available on the forum about the subject and taking into consideration all of you all's wonderful suggestions, I've decided what to do:

I just ordered a William D10 keyless!

In the end, I'm having so much fun with the Paul Franklin course that I decided to go ahead with a standard D10 setup and put Paul's setup on mine. I decided not to go the Universal route.

Thanks everyone for helping me decide.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Wish I had one of those.

Oh, wait!!!!

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

An excellent decision. Good luck, Bill!

Bob Watson · From: Champaign, Illinois, U.S.

You can't go wrong with a D10! I'm curious, how many pedals and knee levers did you go with?

Bill McCloskey · Posted 12 Sep 2022 6:47 pm

Bob, I told him to copy Paul Franklin's copedent. So, 9 pedals. A lot of levers because there are separate levers for both C6 and E9.

Bob Watson · From: Champaign, Illinois, U.S.

I bet it'll have 8 or possibly 9 knee levers on it. You'll only be using a few at first, but I'm sure you'll figure all of that out. I think you're really going to like playing pedal steel and I think it will give you a different perspective that will have a positive effect on your non pedal playing. Welcome to the world of pedals!

Bob Watson · From: Champaign, Illinois, U.S.

It's really interesting to read about the history of the pedal steel and how some of the popular pedal and knee lever changes evolved. Here's an interesting article about copedents that Paul Franklin wrote. You might have seen this already, but if not, check it out. It speaks volumes! https://www.paulfranklinmethod.com/post/copedent-coping

Bill McCloskey · Posted 13 Sep 2022 6:11 am

Yeah, 9 pedals. It is already having a positive effect on my lap steel playing. Thanks for the link. Here is a YouTube of Paul discussing his tuning and set up https://youtu.be/phDJy_IiR1Y

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

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