Copedent for Fender 400 in C6

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Hi guys, I just got a Fender 400 pedal steel that I'm going to tune in C6 - ACEGACEG (lo to hi)
That tuning is the one thing that is set in stone for me - I have been playing 8-string lap steel in that tuning for a loooong time, and I'm really familiar with it, and I don't want to learn a new tuning (I got rid of my E9 pedal steel, which I never really got into, for that Fender 400, so I could use that tuning with some pedals added).
BTW, the music I'm playing is Western Swing, Honkytonk Country, a bit of "Americana/alt.country", NO modern country, so E9 is not a necessity for me!

The Fender 400 I got has 4 pedals, so I'm currently thinking about what to do with those; pretty sure about the first 2 or 3 ones:

P1: Take the G(s) up two semitones to A - not sure whether to do that only with the high G (1st string) only, or with both Gs (then I would have two similar As, on the 4th and 5th string...)

P2: Take the E strings up a semitone to F.

- That way, I could play the AB-pedal stuff from E9 pedal steel with my first two pedals (and incidentially, that's also what the first two pedals do on Sneaky Pete's Fender).

P3: Take the C strings up two semitones to D - just like the C pedal on an E9 PSG.
...not so sure about that one. With my C6 tuning I already have a full minor triad there, so I don't need the E9 - BC pedals for minor"-trick. Maybe something else? Ideas?

The fourth pedal is what I'm really undecided about - currently I'm thinking about using it this way:
P4: Take the E (both, or maybe just the high one - 2nd string) down a semitone, so I can get diminished triads? Might be useful for swinging stuff? Maybe just take down one E ,and use the second pull to take the (low) A up to Bb (for dominant 7th chords)?

What do you guys think? Any better ideas?

Thanks!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I had a 6-pedal Rickenbacker that I tuned like this:

To me, pedals 2, 3, 4 and 6 are the essentials. They are standard C6th changes (P6 is the standard knee lever).

I would have used G for the first string but it sounded weak on this particular guitar. P2 could also raise the high G to G#, as Jimmy Day did.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Roman
I think your whole step pulls will be very hard and stiff, especially high G to A.
Your suggestions do not provide a tritone interval (diminished 5th or augmented 4th) that is an important part of many chords. I suggest
-- lower string 3 (and maybe string 7) from C to B
-- lower both G to F#
-- pedal 3 in b0b's tuning (E to F, and E to Eb)

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The use of these pedals is not obvious because the root of the chord is below the range of the tuning. Here's a simple explanation:

Lowering G to F# makes a D9th chord
Lowering E to Eb makes a F9th chord
Using both together makes a diminished chord.

These chord formations are very common in western swing.
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Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Thanks, guys! I guess I should try to get a hold of some tutorial for "regular" C6 pedal steel. Is there a good quick'n'easy online source on how to build chords on the C6 neck on a "regular" pedal steel?

Bob, those P2 and P3 from your copedent do look useful, indeed - 9th, and esp. diminished chords are what I'm really looking for. Gotta see how to integrate those in my copedent, they kind of overlap some of my intended changes.

Earnest, yeah, haven't thought about how the high G will react yet... Will have to give it a try.
About those dimished 5th - yes, that's something I'm definitely looking for, that's what I intended P4 in my copedent for - since a dimished chord is two minor thirds stacked on top of each other, I thought I'd build it like a minor chord on C6 lap steel, with the root on the A-string - the next string - C - would be the first minor third, and by taking the E-string down a semitone I'd have another minor third (or diminished 5th) on top, giving me a full dimished triad (heck, even a diminished 7th chord, with the G on top...)

Benjamin Franz · From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

This is the C6 I've been using on my Fender 400 for the last few years, though it's five pedals and two knee levers. Pedals 3 and 4 do the E9 AB pedal move, and add the right knee and you have the BC pedal move.
I found the high G wouldn't sustain a raise, so I gave up on it. I sometimes tune the low C# to a C.

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Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

OK, next try - incorporating some of you guys' ideas:

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

That looks real good to me. Very Happy

One thing to keep in mind is that you're losing a note from the diminished chord (P2+P3) by raising the C to D. I wouldn't do that, but I understand your logic in wanting the root of the D9th. I think that once you start playing it with a band, you'll understand why you don't need the root note.

Also, if you don't raise C to D, you'll have a beautiful big D13 chord on P3+P4. It works anywhere a 9th chord works.

BTW, I edited your post for formatting using our [tab] BBCode.
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Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Thanks!

Well, I guess I'll have to try how that works out with the band - I generally like to have the root available on some string, as a "reminder"/"home base" in case I get lost... Very Happy

On the other hand, the bass player usually DOES indeed provide the root, and I generally try to stay in the higher register, anyway, so as to keep things uncluttered (as the rhythm guitar player tends to provide the root, too, most of the time). I'll have to try, fortunately it's really easy to change that on those Fender cable steels.

Also, I'll have to try that D13 - I think I have never played a 13 chord on steel consciously. Very Happy

And thanks for editing - didn't even know that function was available...

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Oh, and one more thought I just had - what about swapping the P2 changes - with -Eb on the 2nd string and +F on the 6th string? That way, I'd have the root of the IV chord (with the AB-pedal move with P1 and P2) lower, and the dom7 higher, which seems more useful to me.
Also, the dim chord on strings 4-3-2 instead of 8-7-6 would be in a higher register (which makes it more useful to me).

Oh, and Bob, I overlooked your previous comment that Jimmy Day took the high G to G# (not to A) - for augmented chords? any other purpoes?

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

Hi Roman, ca I resurrect your post?

I’m currently experimenting with a Fender 400. I started with a E9/A6 but I miss m’y good old C13 to much! I’m always back to C13, nothing to do with it!

So I’m thinking about this setup to start:

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